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Colonel Donn de Grand Pre

Because there is solid evidence that Islamic Extremists did it, and none that the Jews did it, except in the minds of bigots.

The idea of this forum is to give space to opposing views to meet and exchange arguments, in a 'friendly manner' as the forum rules prescribe and not to endlessly repeat preconceived ideas that originate from your background.

Hate mongering and name calling ('neonazi') is not friendly and might lead to the suspicion that the opponent has no arguments.
 
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for the most part, these terms are used to accurately describe people who fit these descriptions. if the shoe fits...

No it is not accurate, it is being used by you and dudalb as a smear word to defame. The reason why you used the word is because I said that I was against mass immigration to the Netherlands. But that does not qualify to be called a 'Neonazi'. Most people in America are deep in their harts opposed to mass immigration as well. It does not make sense to qualify them therefore as Nazi's. And what new is, is that the accusation will come back to the accuser as a boomerang. The question will be asked: from what perspective is this person making this accusation?

And an answer is quickly found.
 
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What I can find about Jacoby is that it is Popular Mechanics who makes that statement in the name of Jacoby. Can you produce a pointer to where Jacoby says so himself? Popular Mechanics has a very bad uhhh... press in truther circles, with good reason.

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/gopm/index.html

Mother of God, you're now trying to rebut the statement by complaining about who reported it? At the same time that you forward Infowars sites as evidence? You can't be serious. It doesn't matter what truther circles say about Pop Mech, it matters what the evidence is. And you've provided zero evidence that the statement was not made.

And the last rebuttal you want to point to is Jim Hoffman's. You cannot combat factual information with disproven canards and repetition of myths.

Has been discussed in this thread. It does not matter whether a plane storms towards the earth with or without a tail (in the latter case after being shot in the tail); it will result in the same primary debris field. It is the (existence of a) secondary and tertiary debris fields that undermine the official story; FDR and CVR have been researched by the party who is under suspicion (in the eyes of the truthers).

Your statement about debris field patterns are bunk. The human remains were found within a relatively small area; so were heavy pieces like the engines. Lighter debris was what was found far away. This is entirely inconsistent with a shootdown. Besides which, you provide zero evidence that the jet was missing its tail! Hell, you provide only one piece of evidence that a jet was in the area at all - de Grand-Pre's statement - and cannot explain the lack of any radar data supporting this, as well as the lack of witness sightings of a missile!

Furthermore, you cannot cast aspersions on the FDR and CVR evidence in such a facile and unsupported manner. The data is entirely consistent with the ATC radar data, as well as the debris. The radar data shows no jets in the area, the FDR demonstrates a fully functional jet, and the CVR has no sounds of explosions or plane disintegration. Try addressing the evidence from here on out. You're not. You're hiding behind weak, unsupported accusations. You want to demonstrate that the FDR is "suspicous"? Show how the information gathered from it contradicts what's known about the flight from the radar data, for example. Show how elements of the data are incorrect, or impossible for the aircraft. If you can't, you have zero rebuttal to the evidence.

You have yet to produce evidence that it was Jacoby himself who stated as such rather than PM.

On the other hand I have a high-ranking officer who says he spoke to the pilot. Why would he lie? It takes persona courage to stand up to the government, no gain is to be expected from such a move, except honor and self respect.

You have an unsupported quote that is flatly contradicted by the rest of the evidence, as well as a quote from a person who's hearing it secondhand from a suspect source and making an opinion about the truthfulness of the source. That's not proof. The source for that general's claim has been refuted by not only a witness, but by electronic evidence as well. We're not even getting into the physical evidence yet, and we already have all we need to demonstrate that de Grand-Pre's statement is false, regardless of who vouches for him. Even if that general believes de Grand-Pre is telling the truth, that does not overcome the weight of the physical and electronic evidence. His belief does not negate real evidence; it is only a belief. Your argument is insufficient as a rebuttal.

I was about to say that myself. :D

Go ahead. Repeat it. We'll agree then that the weight of the evidence sinks your argument. It's about time you realized that yourself.
 
The idea of this forum is to give space to opposing views to meet and exchange arguments, in a 'friendly manner' as the forum rules prescribe and not to endlessly repeat preconceived ideas that originate from your background.

Then maybe you can try to stop citing endlessly to Truther sites.
 
Mother of God, you're now trying to rebut the statement by complaining about who reported it? At the same time that you forward Infowars sites as evidence? You can't be serious. It doesn't matter what truther circles say about Pop Mech, it matters what the evidence is. And you've provided zero evidence that the statement was not made.

I'm not using the word evidence, but you and I are advocates for 2 different causes proposing arguments to support our resp. causes. You have your PM statement, I have the statements of the colonel in person and statements that Gibney was decorated. Regarding the identity of Gibney: on the morning of 9/11 everything was in a rush. A pilot lands in Bozeman, taxis to the tarmac where Jacoby is waiting. There is no time for Jacoby and the pilot to drink coffee and exchange business cards because of the emergency situation, maybe the pilot does not even lift his helmet. Jacoby does not know the pilot, he just steps in and blasts off. In Albany the same story. The identity of the pilot is for Jacoby at that moment completely irrelevant, comparable to that of a taxi driver who brings you from a hotel to the airport: you don't ask for his name, you just tell him where you want to go to. So PM can simply say what they want.

Your statement about debris field patterns are bunk. The human remains were found within a relatively small area; so were heavy pieces like the engines.

Earlier in the thread I pointed to a MSM article that spoke of 'what appeared to be human remains' found miles from the point of impact.

Lighter debris was what was found far away. This is entirely inconsistent with a shootdown. Besides which, you provide zero evidence that the jet was missing its tail!

I did not say I have evidence, I'm just giving a possible explanation.

Hell, you provide only one piece of evidence that a jet was in the area at all - de Grand-Pre's statement - and cannot explain the lack of any radar data supporting this, as well as the lack of witness sightings of a missile!

There are many eyewitnesses that report the presence of 1 or more additional planes. Your own PM article which you forward as evidence confirms the presence of a second plane!!

There was such a jet in the vicinity — a Dassault Falcon 20 business jet owned by the VF Corp. of Greensboro, N.C., ... The VF plane was flying into Johnstown-Cambria airport, 20 miles north of Shanksville. According to David Newell, VF's director of aviation and travel, the FAA's Cleveland Center contacted copilot Yates Gladwell when the Falcon was at an altitude "in the neighborhood of 3000 to 4000 ft." — not 34,000 ft. "They were in a descent already going into Johnstown," Newell adds. "The FAA asked them to investigate and they did. They got down within 1500 ft. of the ground when they circled. They saw a hole in the ground with smoke coming out of it. They pinpointed the location and then continued on

So either your radar statement is bunk or PM is bunk. You might consider the possibility they both are bunk.

Furthermore, you cannot cast aspersions on the FDR and CVR evidence in such a facile and unsupported manner.

Yes I can. The government was engaged in cover ups all the time like with the hasty removal of WTC-evidence.
 
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http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd173.htm

A few months after I returned, I had a lengthy phone conversation with one of my dearest friends, Brigadier General Ben Partin, U.S.A.F. (Ret). Ben is no conspiracy whacko (bio here) and is one of the most decent, honorable people I've ever had the honor of knowing. When I brought up this issue, Ben said that not too long ago he was at a luncheon for retired military officers and Col. Donn de Grand-Pre was there; he also said that he had known Col. de Grand-Pre for twenty years and never knew him to lie about anything. Ben asked Col. de Grand-Pre face to face about the shoot down of Flight 93 and the response was: Yes, he interviewed the pilot who shot down Flight 93 and there's no question whatsoever that Flight 93 was deliberately shot down in a no win situation.

The colonel gets a very good reference from a general no less and on top of that one with a name. Somehow I attach more credibility to that than that derived from smears uttered by anonymous government loyalists, like our analist beachnut who likes to call the colonel 'the dumbest 911Truth book writer save DRG'.

P.S. thanks to ElMondoHummus for providing he name of the pilot that shot down F93. Did not know that one.


And you're nickname includes "Investigator"?

Fail.

"General" Partin? Really? Jeff Rense's favorite interviewee? He stands up for the integrity of Colonel Dom?

Maybe you could get him to post some of his credentials here. That'd be interesting for the military folks to look at.

And you might want to check into some of Colonel Dom's history while you're at it. Seems that a lot of his purported career details cannot be verified.

You've posted, as supporting evidence for an internet blowhard, the word of an internet blowhard.

Great work.
 
The dumb statement contest is a constant event for 911Truth cult members; dump any old standard dumb statement that makes no sense if you were to do the math, research, or physics associated with the statement.

Yes I can. The government was engaged in cover ups all the time like with the hasty removal of WTC-evidence.

"Yes I can" - means no they can't. Simple 911Truth logic.

Cover-ups all the time is not sourced and a dumb statement without need to explain since the author offered zero evidence.

"hasty removal of WTC-evidence" is one hint 911Truth is math challenged.

Hasty - means 8 months. Standard 911Truth logic.

The better truer statement would be:
No I can't. The government was engaged in cover ups all the time but I don't have a source or any examples right now; wait let me try this one! like 8 months of removal of WTC-evidence.

hasty - means 8 months in 911Truth delusion-land.


If you use 911Truth logic you will love Pre's book of woo; 911Truth standard of logic is the only logic used by Col de Grand Pre in doing his book!
 
I'm not using the word evidence, but you and I are advocates for 2 different causes proposing arguments to support our resp. causes. You have your PM statement, I have the statements of the colonel in person and statements that Gibney was decorated. Regarding the identity of Gibney: on the morning of 9/11 everything was in a rush. A pilot lands in Bozeman, taxis to the tarmac where Jacoby is waiting. There is no time for Jacoby and the pilot to drink coffee and exchange business cards because of the emergency situation, maybe the pilot does not even lift his helmet. Jacoby does not know the pilot, he just steps in and blasts off. In Albany the same story. The identity of the pilot is for Jacoby at that moment completely irrelevant, comparable to that of a taxi driver who brings you from a hotel to the airport: you don't ask for his name, you just tell him where you want to go to. So PM can simply say what they want.

So in other words, you still have no proof for your allegation that PM did not tell the truth. The best you can do is spin a tale.

Fail.

Earlier in the thread I pointed to a MSM article that spoke of 'what appeared to be human remains' found miles from the point of impact.

And you ignore the Somerset County Coroner's report that this was not so, that they were entirely contained within acres of the impact zone. It's one thing to put up an unverified claim, it's another to ignore the final word of the area coroner.

I did not say I have evidence, I'm just giving a possible explanation.

No kidding. You have no evidence for any of your claims. No basis either.

There are many eyewitnesses that report the presence of 1 or more additional planes. Your own PM article which you forward as evidence confirms the presence of a second plane!!

There was such a jet in the vicinity — a Dassault Falcon 20 business jet owned by the VF Corp. of Greensboro, N.C., ... The VF plane was flying into Johnstown-Cambria airport, 20 miles north of Shanksville. According to David Newell, VF's director of aviation and travel, the FAA's Cleveland Center contacted copilot Yates Gladwell when the Falcon was at an altitude "in the neighborhood of 3000 to 4000 ft." — not 34,000 ft. "They were in a descent already going into Johnstown," Newell adds. "The FAA asked them to investigate and they did. They got down within 1500 ft. of the ground when they circled. They saw a hole in the ground with smoke coming out of it. They pinpointed the location and then continued on

So either your radar statement is bunk or PM is bunk. You might consider the possibility they both are bunk.

After FL93 went down! After! Find me evidence the jet was there at a time they could have supposedly shot FL93 down! VF Corporation's jet wasn't even vectored towards the crash site until after the crash!

And how's a business class jet supposed to carry missiles?

Yes I can. The government was engaged in cover ups all the time like with the hasty removal of WTC-evidence.

This is what I mean by "no evidence". Empty, unsupported accusations do not cut it. If you want to find people who distrust government, you'll find plenty here, including me, but that doesn't mean you can get away with unsupported allegations.

Show us the evidence. Quit hiding behind empty, unsupported accusations. The fact of the matter is, you have zero evidence that the FDR and CVR data is anything but accurate; you merely dispute its findings because they are fatal to your belief. Time for basic reading on your part:

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93page1
http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_93.html
http://tinyurl.com/fl93-shanksville

Until you can actually back up your claims, until you can actually address evidence with something other than allegations, there's nothing further to discuss.
 
And you're nickname includes "Investigator"?

Fail.

"General" Partin? Really? Jeff Rense's favorite interviewee? He stands up for the integrity of Colonel Dom?

Maybe you could get him to post some of his credentials here. That'd be interesting for the military folks to look at.

And you might want to check into some of Colonel Dom's history while you're at it. Seems that a lot of his purported career details cannot be verified.

You've posted, as supporting evidence for an internet blowhard, the word of an internet blowhard.

Great work.

Good Lord, you're right. All the results so far for Ben Partin are truther sites... and not just on 9/11 too. There's a bunch of links to Oklahoma City bombing woo as well.

Yeah. This is a reliable source... riiiiiiiight... :rolleyes:
 
:dl:

Seriously, wtf is up with the truthers automatically taking the opposite of the "official story"?

According to truthers, there was a "standown order" for the other 3 hijacked flights but Flight 93 was shot down.

There are no words to describe how absolutely asinine this is.
 
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Here is the video with a ceremony where pilot Gibney receives a medal for 'extra ordinary services'. According to the colonel it was this pilot who shot down flight 93.

15:54 (person in the middle group of 5) shows Gibney.

Can somebody explain to me why Gibney should receive a medal for taxi services?
 
:dl:

Seriously, wtf is up with the truthers automatically taking the opposite of the "official story"?

According to truthers, there was a "standown order" for the other 3 hijacked flights but Flight 93 was shot down.

There are no words to describe how absolutely asinine this is.

According to some the shooting down of flight 93 was a decision taken by a local commander. The colonel earlier stated likewise.

Keyword: Elizabeth Nelson, interview april 2009.
 
Here is the video with a ceremony where pilot Gibney receives a medal for 'extra ordinary services'. According to the colonel it was this pilot who shot down flight 93.

15:54 (person in the middle group of 5) shows Gibney.

Can somebody explain to me why Gibney should receive a medal for taxi services?

We've gone over this several times.

FYI: Before you go off spamming the first infowar article you come across, Alex Jones has a "never blame the Jews" rule. He's strictly a blame the Anglo-Saxons conspiracy theorist. He's the one who made the infamous "Arabs own Hollywood" remark.

ETA: check out the warning Jones's daughters--the idiots at LCF--put on their forum.

Loose Change forums said:
Due to demand from users, a section detailing the Israeli Mossad's possible involvement in 9/11 has been created. This section will not tolerate blanket assumptions such as "the jews did it", nor will there be any tolerance shown for 'jew hating'. There will also be NO tolerance shown to any Holocaust Denial. The section will be heavily moderated to ensure, as much as possible, no offense (and thus flaming) be taken by anyone. There will be a three strikes policy. Warning > Suspension > Banning. Likewise, there will be no tolerance shown to general accusations of anti-semitism towards users who offer credible information regarding Israeli govt/Mossad crimes.

Thank you.
Loose Change Admin Staff

And the resident JREF holocaust denier is spamming infowars. :wackyrolleyes:
 
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Can somebody explain to me why Gibney should receive a medal for taxi services?

Still haven't bothered to look up "medal inflation", have you??

“Air Medals are handed out like candy, and the vast majority of enlisted people aren’t eligible for them,” said a nonflying major in the Reserves, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to comment on the issue.

Rated officers and enlisted aircrew who fly 20 or more combat missions receive Air Medals.

... “You’re basically doing your job as a pilot and being recognized for it with a decoration,” said the pilot, also granted anonymity. “It’s maybe not necessary, especially when you compare it to guys who are doing their job on the ground but aren’t getting recognized. I think there is a disparity there.”
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/02/airforce_medals_021509/

This example isn't about the Air Force, but it does demonstrate the problem of awarding medals too liberally:
Still, Mr. Garavelli remembers being dumbfounded when he learned in the 1980's that the Army was presenting all new soldiers with a decoration called the Army Service Ribbon. "That one really turned my stomach," he said. According to Army regulations, the ribbon goes "to members of the regular U.S. Army, Army National Guard and Army Reserve to indicate the successful completion of initial entry training."

"Boot camp, in other words," Mr. Garavelli said. "Now we're giving awards for boot camp."

Want more? Google for it. Truthers are good at that, although you all tend to miss the substantive information in favor of the incredible. Still, though, the information is out there; you can find it on your own. But the point is that, you can ask rhetorical questions about "taxi service" all you want, but medals have been awarded for far less.

While you're at it, you managed to actually link the medal to this supposed shootdown yet? Because, like I said before, all you seem to even try to present are unfounded allegations, not hard facts or actual evidence. A pilot being awarded a medal for ferrying an emergency offical cross country to respond to one of the biggest emergencies in history is certainly silly, but it's orders of magnitude more credible a proposal than one for a supposed shootdown that somehow occurred without leaving credible evidence.

Evidence. Not allegations. You've already been told this. Present evidence if you want people to take you seriously. An awards ceremony is not evidence.
 
I don't believe Gibney got an Air Medal. I don't know what Medal he received, does anyone?

Now a bit OT, but I didn't start it.....

“Air Medals are handed out like candy, and the vast majority of enlisted people aren’t eligible for them,” said a nonflying major in the Reserves, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to comment on the issue.

Rated officers and enlisted aircrew who fly 20 or more combat missions receive Air Medals.

... “You’re basically doing your job as a pilot and being recognized for it with a decoration,” said the pilot, also granted anonymity. “It’s maybe not necessary, especially when you compare it to guys who are doing their job on the ground but aren’t getting recognized. I think there is a disparity there.”

If the "frakin'" ground pounders who complain will stand outside their office and allow me to take multiple shots at them with an Anti-Aircraft weapon - either bullets or Sams would be fine, then they can also earn a frakin' medal. They can earn one each time, not one per twenty times. Fair enough?
 
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According to some the shooting down of flight 93 was a decision taken by a local commander. The colonel earlier stated likewise.

Keyword: Elizabeth Nelson, interview april 2009.

Think real hard. Who would that have been?

Keep in mind that all fighter aircraft would have been OPCON to NEADS.

I can even tell you his name without Googling.

And he's said quite publicly over and over again that there was no shootdown. He came up with a shootdown scenario, as it was his job to plan for all exigencies. When he proposed that option to NMCC it was denied.
 
If the "frakin'" ground pounders who complain will stand outside their office and allow me to take multiple shots at them with an Anti-Aircraft weapon - either bullets or Sams would be fine, then they can also earn a frakin' medal. They can earn one each time, not one per twenty times. Fair enough?

In the grand scheme of things, chest candy and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee in any diner in the world.
 

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