Colonel Donn de Grand Pre

[9/11-investigator]

According to this story Ed Jacoby must have been sitting on Gibney's lap all the way from Bozeman to Albany since Gibney flew a single seater F16.

The commander of the "happy hooligans" admitted in this conference with bloggers in 2007 that they flew F-16 model A (single seat)....Just to start from the beginning, Colonel Mike Wobbema is my name. I am actually with the 119th Wing, the Happy Hooligans out of Fargo, North Dakota. Up until this spring, we were flying the F-16 -- air defense version of the F-16, actually, aircraft; the A model, actually -- in fact, the last operational A model unit in the Air Force.
http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cach...obbema"+a+model+f-16&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

The planes used on 9/11 were evidently F-16A (single seat)
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-9942.html

Doesn't seem likely that Jacoby would be flying with one of the happy hooligans. It seems to be a fact that Gibney would be flying a single seat F-16A, and would be flying out of Langley. Not a double seat out of North Dakota. Which seems to be proof of the official story being a deliberate lie.

Gibney is now commander of the reconnaissance squadron......."It is great to be a part of this air and space power mission. Our squadron is committed to maintain the traditional high standards the Happy Hooligans are known for, said Lieutenant Col. Rick Gibney, commander of the reconnaissance squadron.

"It is exciting and rewarding to be a part of this mission that involves the global war on terrorism, homeland security and domestic contingencies."
http://www.1af.acc.af.mil/library/featuresarchive/story_print.asp?id=123059719

How could one of the members of 119th who use F-16A single seat models pick someone up and fly them to NY?

How indeed.

 

[Reheat]

According to this story Ed Jacoby must have been sitting on Gibney's lap all the way from Bozeman to Albany since Gibney flew a single seater F16.

The commander of the "happy hooligans" admitted in this conference with bloggers in 2007 that they flew F-16 model A (single seat)....Just to start from the beginning, Colonel Mike Wobbema is my name. I am actually with the 119th Wing, the Happy Hooligans out of Fargo, North Dakota. Up until this spring, we were flying the F-16 -- air defense version of the F-16, actually, aircraft; the A model, actually -- in fact, the last operational A model unit in the Air Force.
http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cach...obbema"+a+model+f-16&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

The planes used on 9/11 were evidently F-16A (single seat)
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-9942.html

Doesn't seem likely that Jacoby would be flying with one of the happy hooligans. It seems to be a fact that Gibney would be flying a single seat F-16A, and would be flying out of Langley. Not a double seat out of North Dakota. Which seems to be proof of the official story being a deliberate lie.

Gibney is now commander of the reconnaissance squadron......."It is great to be a part of this air and space power mission. Our squadron is committed to maintain the traditional high standards the Happy Hooligans are known for, said Lieutenant Col. Rick Gibney, commander of the reconnaissance squadron.

"It is exciting and rewarding to be a part of this mission that involves the global war on terrorism, homeland security and domestic contingencies."
http://www.1af.acc.af.mil/library/featuresarchive/story_print.asp?id=123059719

How could one of the members of 119th who use F-16A single seat models pick someone up and fly them to NY?

How indeed.

Does my bolding and underlining of key words help you to understand why you might be wrong? It's amazing that you continue to waste time on the tripe you post and expect someone to take anything you say seriously.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

According to this story Ed Jacoby must have been sitting on Gibney's lap all the way from Bozeman to Albany since Gibney flew a single seater F16. ...

You're not so smart, are you? I'm finding references to the 119th flying the F16b version, which was a two-seater.

The announcement was made in March 1999 that the 119th Fighter Wing would convert from an air defense mission to a general purpose mission with 15 F-16A/B aircraft while activating an alert detachment at Langley AFB, VA.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm

That paragraph also explains why they had jets at both Fargo and Langley.

GlobalSecurity.org also echos this:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm

Furthermore, the third link was about the callsign "Quit" F-16s that were scrambled to Washington. Not the one used by Gibney.

-----

That was just sad. Totally sad. 9/11-I is concentrating on trying to make a lie out of Jacoby being flown to New York, but completely ignoring the entire weight of the rest of the evidence. This is what he's reduced to.

Where's the actual linkage of Gibney's flight or medal to this "shootdown"? I've yet to see it. And I've yet to see real evidence that the jet was shot down; the debris doesn't show it. Neither does the CVR and FDR. There's nothing here but - again, in 9/11-I's style - unsupported allegations. If he keeps on wasting our time with empty links and weak accusations, I'm putting him on ignore. So, it's put up or shut up time. Where's the evidence?

 

[9/11-investigator]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm

That paragraph also explains why they had jets at both Fargo and Langley.

GlobalSecurity.org also echos this:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm

Before you market yourself as such a smartie try providing functioning links first. Both result in blank pages not getting past the 'trying to connect' stage (at least here in Amsterdam).

That was just sad. Totally sad. 9/11-I is concentrating on trying to make a lie out of Jacoby being flown to New York, but completely ignoring the entire weight of the rest of the evidence. This is what he's reduced to.

Complete BS. I do not doubt that Jacoby was flown to Albany (rather than to New York as you erroneously claim). I'm denying that there is any proof that Gibney was the one that flew him. Cover-up Central PopMec saying so is not enough proof by a long shot.

Where's the actual linkage of Gibney's flight or medal to this "shootdown"?

Do you really expect that he will be rewarded by expliciting mentioning the shoot down? Come on. They were mentioning 'excellent services on the day of 9/11' or something similar.

I still cannot think of any motive why the colonel would make such a thing up: explicitly naming the pilot who admitted having shot down F93.

I can think of a motive though why PM would attempt to cover up the official story.

If he keeps on wasting our time with empty links and weak accusations, I'm putting him on ignore. So, it's put up or shut up time.

Easy way out? Nobody is asking you to engage in a conversation. Mind the step on the way out.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Wait, the link is now working (btw you posted 2 identical links for the price of 2, Zweistein).

"The announcement was made in March 1999 that the 119th Fighter Wing would convert from an air defense mission to a general purpose mission with 15 F-16A/B aircraft while activating an alert detachment at Langley AFB, VA."

What do you think an F16 is, a Hamburger you can get from a take away joint? It can take many years before you actually have one.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Before you market yourself as such a smartie try providing functioning links first. Both result in blank pages not getting past the 'trying to connect' stage (at least here in Amsterdam).

Not my problem; they work for me. Go try using a web proxy if you're having problems.

Furthermore, theyr'e not the only links available. Go look for some yourself. Hint: Avoid using truther sites; they're inaccurate and unreliable. But the point is, your claim that the 119th only used single seat versions of F-16s is incorrect.

Complete BS. I do not doubt that Jacoby was flown to Albany (rather than to New York as you erroneously claim). I'm denying that there is any proof that Gibney was the one that flew him. Cover-up Central PopMec saying so is not enough proof by a long shot.

More assertions without proof. You have no reason to doubt that it was Gibney. Jacoby himself said it. Denying that simply because of the source that reports it is a double standard and hypocritical to boot, particularly in the face of your continual use of sites historically far more inaccurate than PopMech.

Do you really expect that he will be rewarded by expliciting mentioning the shoot down? Come on. They were mentioning 'excellent services on the day of 9/11' or something similar.

Thank you for confirming that you have no direct evidence that the medal was awarded for a shootdown.

I still cannot think of any motive why the colonel would make such a thing up: explicitly naming the pilot who admitted having shot down F93.

I can think of a motive though why PM would attempt to cover up the official story.

Your inability to come up with a motive is irrelevant. Any claim that FL93 was shot down is contradicted by evidence. You cannot dismiss the FDR and CVR indicating a perfectly functional jetliner to the moment of impact. You cannot dismiss the passenger calls indicating a hijack. You cannot dismiss the radar track. You cannot dismiss the lack of statements by the first responders or the coroner indicating that the majority of the debris, most especially the heavy components and the human remains was in fact in an area measurable in acres, not scattered across miles. All the evidence demonstrates that the claim of a shootdown is false. And all you bring to counter it are unproven statements from two individuals? Against the weight of the electronic and recovered physical evidence?

You are not a good thinker. You do not know how to measure evidence properly. You do not know how to logically construct a sound argument. And you do not know how to detect errorneous claims. Your failure to understand the events on that day extends from this. You simply are not trying to think clearly, coherently, and logically.

You very much need to improve your critical thinking skills. Forget 9/11; you need to study some basics. Start here:

Carl Sagan: The Demon Haunted World: This book illustrates how fallacious thinking and irrational beliefs are held, and demonstrates how to understand them and discriminate between valid and invalid arguments.

Mistakes Were Made (but not by me) Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts: This book illustrates cognitive dissonance, and how people fool themselves into irrational beliefs. It's good reading for all of us here, myself included, but you need it way more than any of the rest of us do.

Lies, Damned Lies, and Science: This book shows how to separate writings about research from the research itself, how to detect logical fallacies, and generally is a good primer on how to think critically.

There are other books available in the forum's book review section; you can find relevant material to study there. On top of that, there are plenty of sites dedicated to the concept of critical thinking; the summary of the "Baloney Detection Kit" based on Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" is one of them. There are others. The point is that material is available to help people get past irrationality and understand the canards and misrepresentations of all pseudoscientific and fallacious conspiratorial fantasies that are out there. Take it from me: You need this material.

Nobody is asking you to engage in a conversation. Mind the step on the way out.

The fact that you post in this forum means that you're inviting comment. If you do not like the rebuttals, come up with a better argument. Use the links I've given above to improve yourself.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Wait, the link is now working (btw you posted 2 identical links for the price of 2, Zweistein).

"The announcement was made in March 1999 that the 119th Fighter Wing would convert from an air defense mission to a general purpose mission with 15 F-16A/B aircraft while activating an alert detachment at Langley AFB, VA."

What do you think an F16 is, a Hamburger you can get from a take away joint? It can take many years before you actually have one.

They are documented as having a two-seat version, 9/11-I. That's the point of the links.

 

[9/11-investigator]

ElMondoHummus: "The fact that you post in this forum means that you're inviting comment. If you do not like the rebuttals, come up with a better argument."

Wait a minute, it is not me who is threatening to put you on the ignore, it's the other way around! I value your rebuttals since you are one of the more intelligent chaps around here. I'm here to provoke rebuttals, not to avoid them.

Listen, I do not say that the colonel holds the holy grail of 9/11 truth. I find him highly interesting and I am trying to explore deeper in the matter, which results in bouncing posts from left to right like a pingpong-ball.

In my blog how911wasdone.blogspot.com I do not go deep into flight93 or 77 because they contain many mysteries indeed and I modestly advise truthers to concentrate on WTC, where the situation if much clearer. Nevertheless I ran into this colonel a week ago and I was wondering what Debunker Central JREF had to say about him. Not much as it turned out.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

That's because there is not much to say about him. Regardless of his claims, the fact remains that the weight of the evidence disproves his statement.

That's been our argument from the beginning. We don't need to delve into who de Grand-Pre is, what matters is how his claims stack up against what's already known. And to be blunt, it doesn't stack up well at all.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Several eyewitnesses described hearing explosions before Flight 93 crashed
and others said they heard missiles[/I].

How many of those witnesses are qualified to know what a missile should really sound like?

Pan Am 103 did not 'break up' but was blown up with a bomb, an event comparable with the rocket that brought down F93.

If the event was comparable, then the debris field should be comparable. The debris field forr Pan Am 103 was hundreds of square miles. How big did you say F93's was?

The expression was: "like confetti raining down".

This is not like pieces of paper whirling through the sky following the whims of the wind.