Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Paulhoff]

And this goes for Jesus too.



Paul

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

So, in other words, a christian can be against slavery but still worship Jesus, even though he condoned the practice.

"What God sanctioned in the Old Testament, and permitted in the New, cannot be a sin."

Rev. Richard Fuller
1845

(Source: F. G. Wood, The Arrogance of Faith (New York: A. A. Knopf, 1990) p. 59.)

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Well for starters, Nero who was of that same era was the most powerful man in the world. He killed his mother and his wife, not to mention burning alive, feeding to the dogs, and crucifying Christians.

Yeah, what a bad boy, but then there was Constantius II who either ordered or sanctioned (it's unclear which) the massacre of many of his relatives and persecuted the empire's Jews.

Of course, he was a Christian Emperor (the third son of Constantine to be exact), so I guess that can't possiblly be true, right DOC?

 

[arthwollipot]

I've not seen anyone on this forum bleat about their post count as much as DOC does. It's quite sad, really.

 

[arthwollipot]

It is better to have a brain to think than an ear to hear.

Why can't I have both?

 

[Fireshadow]

Why can't I have both?

Well, you can receive input from other stimuli, but if you don't have a brain capable of culling the garbage, separating the wheat from the chaff, it's pointless to have any stimuli at all. If I had to be deprived of one, I would prefer to lose my hearing than my ability to think--as painful as the loss of hearing would be to me (and it would be; I shudder at the thought of life without music), it would be far more painful to be unable to comprehend the world.

 

[DOC]

My question stands. Why should someone like me, for instance, believe that YOUR gut feeling is any more valuable than the gut feelings of a member of a rival religion ?

I take it you think that adding gut feelings together makes you more right than a lesser amount of gut feelings ? What would you say if your religion has fewer followers ? Don't worry, you'd find another "argument". This is why I ask my question, because I'm trying to establish what evidence one has for the truth of christianity other than pure faith. There is none.

I disagree there is no evidence for the truth of Christianity. Here is some evidence:


1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated Thomas Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut 990 verses out of the bible and make a 83 page book with them and claim they are the most moral and sublime teachings in history.

2) Numerous examples of the life changing power of the Gospel that gets people off drugs, turns peoples marriages around, and gives many people a reason to live and hope. I personally have seen countless testimonies on TV about this "real" life changing power.

3) the absurdity of the current mainline scientific theory that all the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe (including all of its matter and space) came from something smaller than one atom and this happened by unintelligent random forces.

5) the fact that the cowardly apostles who wouldn't even attend Christ's crucifixion, or stay awake with him for one hour when he needed them, or who (like Peter) did things like denying Christ to a lone woman 3 times, suddenly became bold evangelists willing to lay down their lives (11 or 12 actually did) and travel all over the known world with great hardships to themselves for their belief.

6)the unexplained empty tomb

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament. (such as Isaiah chapter 53 and Daniel chapter 7 verses 9-14)

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.

9)the fact that the author of Gospel of Luke, who has been called one of the world's great historians by a famous (formerly secular) archaeologist, reports 35 of Christ's miracles in the same matter of fact tone that he correctly reported 84 highly detailed facts (that have been historically and archaelogically verified)

10)Good historical evidence that the Resurrection actually happened.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

Yes, I disagree with your opinion that there is no evidence for the truth of Christianity. There might not be definite proof of it (just as there is no definite proof that living cells can come from non-living material), but I would have to say there does exist definite evidence for the truth of it.

 

[kmortis]

I disagree there is no evidence for the truth of Christianity. Here is some evidence:


1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated Thomas Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut 990 verses out of the bible and make a 83 page book with them and claim they are the most moral and sublime teachings in history.

2) Numerous examples of the life changing power of the Gospel that gets people off drugs, turns peoples marriages around, and gives many people a reason to live and hope. I personally have seen countless testimonies on TV about this "real" life changing power.

3) the absurdity of the current mainline scientific theory that all the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe (including all of its matter and space) came from something smaller than one atom and this happened by unintelligent random forces.

5) the fact that the cowardly apostles who wouldn't even attend Christ's crucifixion, or stay awake with him for one hour when he needed them, or who (like Peter) did things like denying Christ to a lone woman 3 times, suddenly became bold evangelists willing to lay down their lives (11 or 12 actually did) and travel all over the known world with great hardships to themselves for their belief.

6)the unexplained empty tomb

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament. (such as Isaiah chapter 53 and Daniel chapter 7 verses 9-14)

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.

9)the fact that the author of Gospel of Luke, who has been called one of the world's great historians by a famous (formerly secular) archaeologist, reports 35 of Christ's miracles in the same matter of fact tone that he correctly reported 84 highly detailed facts (that have been historically and archaelogically verified)

10)Good historical evidence that the Resurrection actually happened.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

Yes, I disagree with your opinion that there is no evidence for the truth of Christianity. There might not be definite proof of it (just as there is no definite proof that living cells can come from non-living material), but I would have to say there does exist definite evidence for the truth of it.

Let me be the first to say

PFFFFFFFFFT!

All those points have been raised, addressed and eliminated from consideration. Now, the only thing left is ridicule.

 

[Belz...]

There is pleanty of evidence for the New Testament Doc but many here on jref just seem to not have an ear to hear. It does make me very sad but I will encourage you to keep up the good fight of faith. I myself am sold out for Christ come what may! Jesus is Lord!!

How about this:

There is pleanty of evidence for the Quran Kathy but many here on jref just seem to not have an ear to hear. It does make me very sad but I will encourage you to keep up the good fight of faith. I myself am sold out for Allah come what may! Mohammad is the prophet!!

You still haven't answered my question, Kathy. Are you afraid of doing that ?

 

[Lothian]

Same old, same old

Perhaps you would like to pick some evidence that hasn’t already been discredited many times. Repeating something does not make it truer.

 

[Belz...]

The world was messed up in Jesus' era, even more so than now. Change would not come easy; and relative against relative sometimes might have been the only way to burst forth from the mess the world was in.

Did you just argue that Jesus' teachings no longer apply ?

 

[Belz...]

I disagree there is no evidence for the truth of Christianity. Here is some evidence:

This should be amusing.

1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated Thomas Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut 990 verses out of the bible and make a 83 page book with them and claim they are the most moral and sublime teachings in history.

Explain to me how the BELIEF of someone in something makes that something true ? One does NOT follow from the other. The easiest way to show this is to point out that folk from OTHER religions are just as convinced as you are. In fact that's the core of my argument against woo.

2) Numerous examples of the life changing power of the Gospel that gets people off drugs, turns peoples marriages around, and gives many people a reason to live and hope. I personally have seen countless testimonies on TV about this "real" life changing power.

Sorry, but again it's the BELIEF that gets them to do this. There is no difference between a world where the belief, in this case, represents a real god, and one where it doesn't.

3) the absurdity of the current mainline scientific theory that all the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe (including all of its matter and space) came from something smaller than one atom and this happened by unintelligent random forces.

How is it absurd ? It follows from the evidence. The universe is expanding. It follows that it was smaller in the past, and much, much smaller in the distant past. So, what's absurd about it ? I hope it isn't because you don't understand it.

5) the fact that the cowardly apostles who wouldn't even attend Christ's crucifixion, or stay awake with him for one hour when he needed them, or who (like Peter) did things like denying Christ to a lone woman 3 times, suddenly became bold evangelists willing to lay down their lives (11 or 12 actually did) and travel all over the known world with great hardships to themselves for their belief.

So the bible claims, actually. But the bible is the source of the god-claim... so it's hardly confirmation of anything. Again, not evidence.

6)the unexplained empty tomb

Another claim of the bible.

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament. (such as Isaiah chapter 53 and Daniel chapter 7 verses 9-14)

Retrofitting of old prophecies or invention of old prophecies after the fact does NOT constitute fulfilling them.

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.

Like Buddhism, you mean ?

9)the fact that the author of Gospel of Luke, who has been called one of the world's great historians by a famous (formerly secular) archaeologist, reports 35 of Christ's miracles in the same matter of fact tone that he correctly reported 84 highly detailed facts (that have been historically and archaelogically verified)

He also wasn't an eye witness, as indicated by the foreword of the gospel. You did read it, right ?

10)Good historical evidence that the Resurrection actually happened.

There is none, actually. If there was good evidence, then historians would be mentioning them. There would have been nothing surprising about the existence of god, but somehow all those scientists and historians came to reject the faith-based method of reaching conclusions, specifically because EVIDENCE is the best way to conduct science, and because there is NO such evidence for the resurrection.

Yes, I disagree with your opinion that there is no evidence for the truth of Christianity.

Indeed, and as I said you have no evidence. What you've listed above is just your faith-based opinions, based on the very book that makes the claim. Rael makes amazing claims in his book about aliens. But that doesn't make it true.

There might not be definite proof of it (just as there is no definite proof that living cells can come from non-living material)

Actually, that ALSO follows from the evidence. We KNOW that organic materials can form from non-organic ones and we also KNOW that DNA and life itself is a biological chain reaction. So it's quite reasonable to assume that it started somewhere, and positing an invisible sky-dude as the cause is unwarranted.

 

[joobz]

1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated Thomas Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut 990 verses out of the bible and make a 83 page book with them and claim they are the most moral and sublime teachings in history.

1. Jefferson called the Christ as god story a pile of crap.

2) Numerous examples of the life changing power of the Gospel that gets people off drugs, turns peoples marriages around, and gives many people a reason to live and hope. I personally have seen countless testimonies on TV about this "real" life changing power.

2.) I've seen countless testimonies for trimspa on tv....

3) the absurdity of the current mainline scientific theory that all the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe (including all of its matter and space) came from something smaller than one atom and this happened by unintelligent random forces.

3.) the absurdity of a god who'd make the universe simply appear as though it came from a singularity.

5) the fact that the cowardly apostles who wouldn't even attend Christ's crucifixion, or stay awake with him for one hour when he needed them, or who (like Peter) did things like denying Christ to a lone woman 3 times, suddenly became bold evangelists willing to lay down their lives (11 or 12 actually did) and travel all over the known world with great hardships to themselves for their belief.

5. Cults can transform people into reckless zealots... Say it isn't so!

6)the unexplained empty tomb

6. The unevidenced empty tomb.

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament. (such as Isaiah chapter 53 and Daniel chapter 7 verses 9-14)

7. The numerous fulfilled prophesies in the lord of the rings.

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.

8.) I see you've read the, History for people who hate history book.

9)the fact that the author of Gospel of Luke, who has been called one of the world's great historians by a famous (formerly secular) archaeologist, reports 35 of Christ's miracles in the same matter of fact tone that he correctly reported 84 highly detailed facts (that have been historically and archaelogically verified)

9.) This must mean everything by Harry Turtledove is real.

10)Good historical evidence that the Resurrection actually happened.

10.) Now you aren't even attempting to be honest.

Let's add one more
11.) Jesus condoned slavery.

 

[kmortis]

Belz...,
Seriously, at this point if there are any lurkers left that don't realize that DOC is talking out both sides of his mouth, they're as twisted as he is. I recommend a full-on program of ridicule until such time as COD capitulates and realizes that he has yet to make a cogent argument.

 

[zooterkin]

1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated Thomas Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut 990 verses out of the bible and make a 83 page book with them and claim they are the most moral and sublime teachings in history.

So, you're appealing to the authority of someone who did not believe in the divinity of Christ to support your belief in the divinity of Christ?

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.

Why do you hate the Romans?

10)Good historical evidence that the Resurrection actually happened.

Ooh, at last!

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

You seem to have posted the wrong link...

 

[Amazer]

Keep dreaming.... COD is never going to capitulate, and he seems wholly incapable of realizing anything (that goes against his religion).

 

[Belz...]

Amazer is right. But I'm still engaging him in case some lurker agrees with him.

ETA: oh, and Welcome to the forum, Amazer. I'm amazed already.

 

[Simon39759]

Welcome to the fora Amazer. And I agree with you.

 

[Lothian]

While we await Doc’s latest repetition of an oft debunked claim, I thought a quiz might be in order.

Who can guess the bible verse from the picture.

For those not familar with the wonderful brick testament more here.

 

[Simon39759]

The guys are brownish looking, so it might have to do with Ham...