Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[bio]

The relevant prints can be found here on the truther site 9-11 Research:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/table.html

The relevant sets are:

• ShuttleElevatorsNo1To11_HoistwayPlan that shows the hoistway of elvators # 6 and 7. They are marked PE7 and CE7 on the blueprint.
• Zone1And2ShuttleElevatorsElevations that shows the hoistway from top to bottom.
• ServiceLevelCorePlan (B1 level) to shows the core plan on B1

According to my measures the clearing between the two elevator cars and the shaft walls is about 1/2 meter on both sides. And there is a clearing of about a 1/2 meter between the two cars. Note that the two cars run in the same shaft. What looks like a wall between the cars is just a horizontal beam that is a part of the floor system in the core. In case one of the elevators get stuck, the other elevator can rescue the passengers in the other car through the emergency door you can see in the first print listed above.

In other words there is plenty of space for the jetfuel cloud/fireball to flow around cars in.

thank you very much. I have not seen this prints before. Unfortunately I cannot identify anything there. One question about my understanding:
In one shaft worked two cars (6,7). They were both parked in B1, in the same shaft. Nevertheless, you say, that there were enough space in the shaft, to let the explosive vapor pouring through.

 

[BigAl]

thank you very much. I have not seen this prints before. Unfortunately I cannot identify anything there. One question about my understanding:
In one shaft worked two cars (6,7). They were both parked in B1, in the same shaft. Nevertheless, you say, that there were enough space in the shaft, to let the explosive vapor pouring through.

On a practical note, the cars were rather large and moved rather fast. There would have to be generous clearance on the sides to let the air pass. That would be plenty of space for fuel or a fuel-air mixture to be blown down.

 

[bio]

On a practical note, the cars were rather large and moved rather fast. There would have to be generous clearance on the sides to let the air pass. That would be plenty of space for fuel or a fuel-air mixture to be blown down.

do you think, that therefore elevator 6/7 was unique among all the elevators?

 

[WildCat]

do you think, that therefore elevator 6/7 was unique among all the elevators?

No, and 2 cars in one shaft has no beariung whatsoever on the space between elevators and the shaft walls.

You've never seen an actual elevator shaft in your entire life, have you?

 

[thewholesoul]

The fuel came down in an aerosolized or vaporized state, wafting around the parked cars as gases and aerosols are known to do with ease. Where is the mystery here?

felipe david recieved burn injuries below car 50 and before car 50 reached the basement. a falling elevator car falls faster than any liquid or aerosol. therefore whatever burnt felipe was not caused by jet fuel. period.

 

[thewholesoul]

No, and 2 cars in one shaft has no beariung whatsoever on the space between elevators and the shaft walls.

You've never seen an actual elevator shaft in your entire life, have you?

have you ever seen a freight elevator? its like a cage.

so how could fire enter 7 or so closed elevators (lobby and express elevators) but not enter the freight elevator of Marlene Cruz and Artur Griffith?

 

[TJM]

have you ever seen a freight elevator? its like a cage.

so how could fire enter 7 or so closed elevators (lobby and express elevators) but not enter the freight elevator of Marlene Cruz and Artur Griffith?

It depends on the manufacturer of the elevator. The freight elevators I work with (Modern 40 story high rise), look like well... elevators. Around in the corner in one of the historic buildings, the elevators are the "cage" type I believe you're trying to describe.

You'd have to look at what damage flight 11 did to the core, where the elevator shafts are housed.. That would show you how vapor or fuel got into the elevator shafts.

 

[Norseman]

thank you very much. I have not seen this prints before. Unfortunately I cannot identify anything there. One question about my understanding:
In one shaft worked two cars (6,7). They were both parked in B1, in the same shaft. Nevertheless, you say, that there were enough space in the shaft, to let the explosive vapor pouring through.

The figure below shows the shaft of elevators #6 and 7 on B1, it is from the blueprint I linked in my earlier post:



There was plenty of space for the jetfuel aerosol/vapor/fireball to flow around the elevators in, as stated by others. The same goes for the shaft of elevator #50, the freight elevator.

 

[bio]

The figure below shows the shaft of elevators #6 and 7 on B1, it is from the blueprint I linked in my earlier post:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1814149ff143686e63.jpg[/qimg]

There was plenty of space for the jetfuel aerosol/vapor/fireball to flow around the elevators in, as stated by others. The same goes for the shaft of elevator #50, the freight elevator.

thank you very much! Great investigation.

 

[BigAl]

felipe david recieved burn injuries below car 50 and before car 50 reached the basement. a falling elevator car falls faster than any liquid or aerosol. therefore whatever burnt felipe was not caused by jet fuel. period.

Conjecture on your part.

 

[aggle-rithm]

a falling elevator car falls faster than any liquid or aerosol.

Really?

Interesting.

Even if gravity isn't the only force present? Even if there was, say, much higher air pressure in the top of the shaft than the bottom?

Wow, you learn something new every day.

What makes the elevator car fall faster?

 

[aggle-rithm]

have you ever seen a freight elevator? its like a cage.

In what way?

 

[BigAl]

have you ever seen a freight elevator? its like a cage.

I've been in freight elevators in countless large Manhattan buildings. I've never seen one that wasn't enclosed.

 

[bio]

The figure below shows the shaft of elevators #6 and 7 on B1, it is from the blueprint I linked in my earlier post:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1814149ff143686e63.jpg[/qimg]

There was plenty of space for the jetfuel aerosol/vapor/fireball to flow around the elevators in, as stated by others. The same goes for the shaft of elevator #50, the freight elevator.

75 % of the shaft was blocked by the cars. Okay.

What I do not understand:
There in the print, I can see two cars, but then there need to be two shafts, too? Two cars=two shafts.

 

[Norseman]

75 % of the shaft was blocked by the cars. Okay.

What I do not understand:
There in the print, I can see two cars, but then there need to be two shafts, too? Two cars=two shafts.

Why would it need to be two shafts? In this case it is two elevators sharing the same shaft. What looks like a wall dividing the two cars is just a horizontal beam, similar to this picture showing the interior of a shaft containing three elevators:

http://www.elevatorbobs-elevator-pics.com/images2/Elec Hoistways/Older/oh91HR.jpg

The gallery with text can be viewed here:
http://www.elevatorbobs-elevator-pics.com/elec_hoistways_older_p4.html

Note that the elevator cars in WTC had emergency exit doors on the side, just like the car in the picture above. If for instance car #6 got stuck, they could have run #7 car to the position of the other elevator and transferred the passengers. The doors are shown in one of the blueprints I linked earlier. The express elevators ran for long stretches through shaft sections without any exit doors on the floors at all.

 

[leftysergeant]

felipe david recieved burn injuries below car 50 and before car 50 reached the basement.

So what?

a falling elevator car falls faster than any liquid or aerosol.

There are safety devices to prevent free-fall of elevators They may, at that time, have been malfunctioning, but, were the car falling at free-fall, Filipe wouild have probably been too injured by impact when the elevator stopped to walk, perhaps even killed by blunt force trauma.

There may have been a suffiecient concentration of fuel in the shaft long before it caught fire, It was probably not well-enough aerated. It may also have been ejected from one shaft into another at several points.

therefore whatever burnt felipe was not caused by jet fuel. period.

As I have stated before, it is impossible for an explosive to do that sort of injury. Close enough to be burned is close enough to be torn to shreds and a red smear.

 

[WildCat]

have you ever seen a freight elevator? its like a cage.

I've ridden in many freight elevators, I'm in the construction industry. The cage type is far more common in older buildings. Freaight elevators in modern buildings (such as the WTC) tend to be like normal elevators only without carpeting and other luxury decorations..

At least that's the way it is in Chicago.

 

[Woody-]

have you ever seen a freight elevator? its like a cage.

I remember from my college days my dorm had three elevators. They looked and functioned identically but one was the freight elevator simply because it had a higher weight limit. If you were moving things like furniture or TV's you used it.

 

[bio]

Why would it need to be two shafts? In this case it is two elevators sharing the same shaft. What looks like a wall dividing the two cars is just a horizontal beam, similar to this picture showing the interior of a shaft containing three elevators:

http://www.elevatorbobs-elevator-pics.com/images2/Elec Hoistways/Older/oh91HR.jpg

The gallery with text can be viewed here:
http://www.elevatorbobs-elevator-pics.com/elec_hoistways_older_p4.html

Note that the elevator cars in WTC had emergency exit doors on the side, just like the car in the picture above. If for instance car #6 got stuck, they could have run #7 car to the position of the other elevator and transferred the passengers. The doors are shown in one of the blueprints I linked earlier. The express elevators ran for long stretches through shaft sections without any exit doors on the floors at all.

Thank you for your interesting work, but you could not convince me. Your point is, that the explosive material went through the shaft of elevator 6/7 and exploded in the end of the shaft. The end of this shaft was at Basement 4.

From there (B4) we have following witness account from Phillip Morelli :

"and all of a sudden the big impact happened again, and all of the ceiling tiles was falling down, the light fixtures were falling, swinging out of the ceiling, and I come running out the door, and everything, the walls were down, and I started running towards the parking lots."

or from Edward McCabe:

"see there were no longer any walls just rubble."

I cannot understand, why the cars 6, 7 parked on B1 were not destroyed by the explosive material, but the same explosive material could destroy walls in B4. Especially due to the fact, that the cars of 6, 7 blocked the shaft to 75 %. So the cars got 75 % of this explosive material, and the shaft only 25 %.

 

[Dog Town]

Thank you for your interesting work, but you could not convince me.

Religion is hard to let go of... try it , though!
What part of this confuses you? It's OK to admit it.

For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 (Bank B) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. … Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so. http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf(PDF pg. 160)