Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[BigAl]

from there:
"The yellow area indicates the large #6 and #7 elevators, which led to Windows on the World in the north tower (WTC 1) and to the observation deck in the south tower (WTC 2). This shaft is continuous from the impact zones to sublevel B4, where several people within the core area were injured by the jet fuel blast, and where building engineer Edward McCabe said the blast came "about 30 seconds" after he felt the building shift."

How could the magic fireball shot down shaft 6/7 to the core B4, when the cars of 6,7 were parked on B2, and were burned out according to witness accounts? There were an "elevator modernization program" , therefore 6, 7 were not working these days.

Like this very real "magic fireball"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cQOUuJ1DWI (70 seconds)​

 

[leftysergeant]

Did it ever dawn on you that the fuel went down the shaft in liquid form, and burst into flame once inside the shaft?

Actually, it would have come down moire as vapor or mist and would not neccessarily have ignited until more oxygen and a source of ignition was introduced. This could be from an elevator door opening, a contact in the controls opening or closing or any of the other things going on in the cores.

This is why there were two explosions in the lower levels, one of them after Schroeder had arrived from across the street.

 

[bio]

Actually, it would have come down moire as vapor or mist and would not neccessarily have ignited until more oxygen and a source of ignition was introduced. This could be from an elevator door opening, a contact in the controls opening or closing or any of the other things going on in the cores.

This is why there were two explosions in the lower levels, one of them after Schroeder had arrived from across the street.

There were very powerful explosions from below the car: There are for example reports from the underground station, from people under rubble. ... it is hard to understand, how this dangerous and explosive vapor could smuggle smoothly around the car and explode there.

 

[Dog Town]

There were very powerful explosions from below the car:.

Evidence?

There are for example reports from the underground station, from people under rubble. ... it is hard to understand, how this dangerous and explosive vapor could smuggle smoothly around the car and explode there

Why not with it?

Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so.

 

[bio]

Evidence?



Why not with it?

The cars were not destroyed, but burned out. Therefore they still "blocked" the shafts.

Evidences for explosions under B2 (where the cars 6/7 were parked) you can find easily here. Please read the post of my friend "thewholesoul". Thank you.

 

[TJM]

There were very powerful explosions from below the car: There are for example reports from the underground station, from people under rubble. ... it is hard to understand, how this dangerous and explosive vapor could smuggle smoothly around the car and explode there.

I take it you've never been in an elevator pit.

 

[bio]

I take it you've never been in an elevator pit.

the truth-movement got the blueprints from the north tower by a secret source. You can find the prints in the internet. As I understood them, there was not so much space between the shaft and the car.

 

[TJM]

the truth-movement got the blueprints from the north tower by a secret source. You can find the prints in the internet. As I understood them, there was not so much space between the shaft and the car.

Got a link to that? I know a little bit about elevators and how they work. I'd like to see that.

 

[bio]

Got a link to that? I know a little bit about elevators and how they work. I'd like to see that.

I was working on the german translation and only have the prints integrated in a word-format. I was looking for it in the internet with no success.

In this study, you can only see the prints, when you are registered:
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=18745

Perhaps here anybody have a blueprint of an elevator pit ... Would be interesting, what you think.

 

[TJM]

I was working on the german translation and only have the prints integrated in a word-format. I was looking for it in the internet with no success.

In this study, you can only see the prints, when you are registered:
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=18745

Perhaps here anybody have a blueprint of an elevator pit ... Would be interesting, what you think.

"However, the World Trade Center's core and elevator shafts were hermetically sealed, AKA, air-tight. The fire could not possibly have had enough oxygen to travel 1,300 feet down, retaining enough energy to destroy the bottom 8 floors of the building."

That pegged the old BS meter right there. How do mechanics enter the pits? Through an airlock? Otis provides their mechanics with oxygen tanks? Passengers are advised to hold their breath while traveling in the elevators?

Most elevator shafts are designed to have enough room for men to walk around in, for counterweights to move up and down, for pulleys to operate, for the cables attached to the car to move with car. There's a lot going on in an elevator shaft. It certainly is not like a "bullet in a gun barrel", which some people would have us believe.

 

[bio]

That pegged the old BS meter right there. How do mechanics enter the pits? Through an airlock? Otis provides their mechanics with oxygen tanks? Passengers are advised to hold their breath while traveling in the elevators?

Most elevator shafts are designed to have enough room for men to walk around in, for counterweights to move up and down, for pulleys to operate, for the cables attached to the car to move with car. There's a lot going on in an elevator shaft. It certainly is not like a "bullet in a gun barrel", which some people would have us believe.

I am studying ...

As I understand the prints, the end of the shaft (where the pit was located) was not broader / bigger than the rest of the shaft. There was no additional space.
Anyhow with your argumentation (enough space, air in the pit ...), you have a problem: Why didnt explode the explosive vapor / liquid there, but actually smuggled around the pit to explode further down?

 

[TJM]

I am studying ...

As I understand the prints, the end of the shaft (where the pit was located) was not broader / bigger than the rest of the shaft. There was no additional space.
Anyhow with your argumentation (enough space, air in the pit ...), you have a problem: Why didnt explode the explosive vapor / liquid there, but actually smuggled around the pit to explode further down?

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

 

[TJM]

Bio, where are you from? Do you have any high rise buildings where you live?

 

[bio]

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

the cars were at B2 in the shaft. You say there was enough air / place between shaft and car. Why did not explode the explosive liquid and vapor there, but in B4 and further down? the cars at b2 were not destroyed by an explosion, the cars were just burnt out.

I hope you can understand me. i am from germany.

 

[TJM]

the cars were at B2 in the shaft. You say there was enough air / place between shaft and car. Why did not explode the explosive liquid and vapor there, but in B4 and further down? the cars at b2 were not destroyed by an explosion, the cars were just burnt out.

I hope you can understand me. i am from germany.

No worries, I'm just trying to understand you a little better.

What caused the explosion in B4? I'm not even sure there was an explosion in B4. What source do you have for that? If your asking how the Vapor / Liquid could have got past the car on B2, that's easy: The car is not installed flush up against the walls inside the shaft. There is room on all sides of the car by design. Don't believe me though, ask a mechanic.

Next time you're in a high rise building, try this little experiment: Take a small flashlight with you. Call an elevator. When the doors open, shine your flashlight in the gap in the doors on the left or the right. If your in a bank with multiple cars, you should be able to see the neighboring cars and their machinery working. Don't do this too long though. Most elevators have alarms that sound when the doors are held too long. You should also see why a "hermetically sealed" elevator shaft is a silly idea.

 

[leftysergeant]

There were very powerful explosions from below the car: There are for example reports from the underground station, from people under rubble. ... it is hard to understand, how this dangerous and explosive vapor could smuggle smoothly around the car and explode there.

Its behavior would be basicly thast of a gas. It rushes out to fill all available spece. There is always considerable space in all directions around an elevator car.

It came down the shafts in apparently too great a concentrtation to ignite. A candle will snuff out before a man is unable to breathe in an enclosed space.

The fuel diod not get enough oxygen until it had reached the end of its course, probably at an open door or one about the open.

That people in the elevator cars were severly burned shows that it was the deflagration of the fuel, and not HE which did the damage. As I have stated before, repeatedly, if you are close enough to be burned by HE, you are a meat smoothie. If you were in the elevator and close enough to be burned by a charge outside the elevator, you are potted meat.

 

[Norseman]

I was working on the german translation and only have the prints integrated in a word-format. I was looking for it in the internet with no success.

In this study, you can only see the prints, when you are registered:
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=18745

Perhaps here anybody have a blueprint of an elevator pit ... Would be interesting, what you think.

The relevant prints can be found here on the truther site 9-11 Research:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/table.html

The relevant sets are:

• ShuttleElevatorsNo1To11_HoistwayPlan that shows the hoistway of elvators # 6 and 7. They are marked PE7 and CE7 on the blueprint.
• Zone1And2ShuttleElevatorsElevations that shows the hoistway from top to bottom.
• ServiceLevelCorePlan (B1 level) to shows the core plan on B1

According to my measures the clearing between the two elevator cars and the shaft walls is about 1/2 meter on both sides. And there is a clearing of about a 1/2 meter between the two cars. Note that the two cars run in the same shaft. What looks like a wall between the cars is just a horizontal beam that is a part of the floor system in the core. In case one of the elevators get stuck, the other elevator can rescue the passengers in the other car through the emergency door you can see in the first print listed above.

In other words there is plenty of space for the jetfuel cloud/fireball to flow around cars in.

 

[Norseman]

The cars were not destroyed, but burned out. Therefore they still "blocked" the shafts.

Evidences for explosions under B2 (where the cars 6/7 were parked) you can find easily here. Please read the post of my friend "thewholesoul". Thank you.

No they were reported parked on B1. Even though the shaft continued down to B4 the buffer would prevent them from going any further down.

 

[Norseman]

No worries, I'm just trying to understand you a little better.

What caused the explosion in B4? I'm not even sure there was an explosion in B4. What source do you have for that? If your asking how the Vapor / Liquid could have got past the car on B2, that's easy: The car is not installed flush up against the walls inside the shaft. There is room on all sides of the car by design. Don't believe me though, ask a mechanic.

Look back to my post #725 and #726 in this thread. The cause nothing else than the deflagration of jetfuel from Flight 11.

 

[TJM]

Look back to my post #725 and #726 in this thread. The cause nothing else than the deflagration of jetfuel from Flight 11.

Thank you, I hadn't read through the entire thread, the elevator question caught my interest. On any question of explosives being used, leftysergeant says it best:

That people in the elevator cars were severly burned shows that it was the deflagration of the fuel, and not HE which did the damage. As I have stated before, repeatedly, if you are close enough to be burned by HE, you are a meat smoothie. If you were in the elevator and close enough to be burned by a charge outside the elevator, you are potted meat.