From Rapture Ready

[kurious_kathy]

Indeed, it is not an article of faith to the majority of Xtians. However there is a minority, especially in America, who seem to think that the dire Left Behind series is a theological treatise.

So Mr Clingford I want to ask you if you believe in the raptrue of the church or not? Many denominationalist I recently discovered are preterist which is a big concern to me.

 

[Mr Clingford]

So Mr Clingford I want to ask you if you believe in the raptrue of the church or not? Many denominationalist I recently discovered are preterist which is a big concern to me.

No, I don't believe in the Rapture - I think the idea is based on some misunderstandings of Bible verses.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I'll tag on to this thread to raise a "concern" I have wrt to flying off to heaven on death or being resurrected when JC returns. Which is it?

If you're a saint, you're in immediately. Otherwise, you have to wait until judgement day. But that's OK, because you'll be dead!

Gotta feel sorry for those saints. For millenia they are up there in an uncrowded Heaven, easy access to the pool and golf course, and all of a sudden they'll be joined by billions of mouth-breathers, stumbling about and trampling on the carefully manicured landscape.

If I were a saint, I would urge those in the mortal world to smoke, drink, and fornicate heavily. That way there wouldn't be such long lines at the heavenly roller coasters, when the end of days arrives.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day. (Christiand know this)

Although war has gotten more efficient, the rate that people have died in wars each year has remained steady since WWII. Up until that point, it had increased every year since pretty much the beginning of history.

So, war-wise, things are better now than they were in biblical times.

The end of the story is Jesus wins, Satan loses but people either listen to Jesus or they are of their father the devil.

If we already know what's going to happen, what's the point of going through with it?

It truly is black and white when it all comes down to the question,"Where do you want to spend eternity?"

So you're saying all black people are going to hell?

That's quite a bold statement. Do you care to back it up with facts?

 

[Alareth]

No, I don't believe in the Rapture - I think the idea is based on some misunderstandings of Bible verses.

The History Channel had an interesting show on the Rapture a couple of weeks ago that traced the origins of the idea to a British pastor in the 1800's and arose from dispensationalism.

It really gained a foothold here in the US among evangelicals.

As a religious belief and teaching, the idea is less than 200 years old.

 

[JetLeg]

I can't tell you what it meant to me to get an apology from my father for it when I finally told him how it tormented me as a child.

Was he religious when he gave the apology? If so, why did he apologize, wouldn't he think "I just told my child the truth"?

 

[Hokulele]

Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day.

Please give an example of a time in history when this wasn't true.

 

[kbm99]

So Mr Clingford I want to ask you if you believe in the raptrue of the church or not? Many denominationalist I recently discovered are preterist which is a big concern to me.

KK, perhaps you could quote the specific Bible verses that support the popularly held concept of the Rapture as understood by modern evangelicals such as yourself.

 

[kbm99]

How much of an article of faith is the rapture to Christians?

When I was confirmed int he Lutheran church at the age of . . . 13 or so, maybe? . . . the idea of the Second Coming of Christ was taught, but the whole "rapture" concept was not really discussed. Indeed, in many ways, the Second Coming was treated as something of a mystery - we were told it would happen, but not how, or what form it would take, or when, or even exactly what "Second Coming" would mean.

At about that same time, Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth" book and movie hit the scene. They went a long way to popularize premillenial dispensationalist theology, but even so I can't recall a lot of discussion about the "End Times" in church. Lutherans tended to be a bit more pragmatic in their approach, at least the Lutherans I was around did.

When I went through a (thankfully brief) evangelical conversion/experience myself some years later, I attended first a Southern Baptist Church (where the youth minister told me I needed to be baptized again because Lutherans were "almost as bad as Catholics" and therefore my infant baptism didn't count) and eventually a non-denominational church in Austin. The Baptists spent a LOT of time talking about the rapture and wondering if the anti-christ was alive on earth yet, etc. It was a typical feature of the Sunday sermon, for example. The non-denominational group, not so much. Maybe in Sunday school, or as a special topic, but it wasn't emphasized.

So, the Southern Baptists being a very large denomination (the largest protestant group in the country at one point, I think, not sure today) I'd say the concept is very much an "article of faith" to US Christians, though not universal.

 

[slingblade]

So, the Southern Baptists being a very large denomination (the largest protestant group in the country at one point, I think, not sure today) I'd say the concept is very much an "article of faith" to US Christians, though not universal.

Exactly. Where I grew up, if you weren't Pentecostal, you were probably Southern Baptist. Or Catholic, but we were taught as kids that they weren't "really" Christians, so they could be ignored.

But yeah, the rapture was a pretty normal thing to hear about back then, back there.

In fact, it wasn't until a few years ago, and right here, that I found out it isn't something all Christians (except for Catholics) believe in.


...edited to add: I grew up reading Hal Lindsey, too.

 

[Mr Clingford]

KK, perhaps you could quote the specific Bible verses that support the popularly held concept of the Rapture as understood by modern evangelicals such as yourself.

Probably Thessalonians and Matthew (I think).

When I was confirmed int he Lutheran church at the age of . . . 13 or so, maybe? . . . the idea of the Second Coming of Christ was taught, but the whole "rapture" concept was not really discussed. Indeed, in many ways, the Second Coming was treated as something of a mystery - we were told it would happen, but not how, or what form it would take, or when, or even exactly what "Second Coming" would mean.

Things sounds similar to my Anglican upbringing where the "Second Coming" was left as a vague thing, although the more literal minded did think Christ would actually come down out of the clouds. Fortunately, the Rapture made no appearance whatsoever.

At about that same time, Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth" book and movie hit the scene. They went a long way to popularize premillenial dispensationalist theology, but even so I can't recall a lot of discussion about the "End Times" in church. Lutherans tended to be a bit more pragmatic in their approach, at least the Lutherans I was around did.

When I went through a (thankfully brief) evangelical conversion/experience myself some years later, I attended first a Southern Baptist Church (where the youth minister told me I needed to be baptized again because Lutherans were "almost as bad as Catholics" and therefore my infant baptism didn't count) and eventually a non-denominational church in Austin. The Baptists spent a LOT of time talking about the rapture and wondering if the anti-christ was alive on earth yet, etc. It was a typical feature of the Sunday sermon, for example. The non-denominational group, not so much. Maybe in Sunday school, or as a special topic, but it wasn't emphasized.

So, the Southern Baptists being a very large denomination (the largest protestant group in the country at one point, I think, not sure today) I'd say the concept is very much an "article of faith" to US Christians, though not universal.

I still laugh that some Xtians don't think Catholics are also Xtians.

 

[technoextreme]

Actually, she was saying that her Grandma was taking so long to be converted, she was tempted to ask God to kill her off. So this "christian" person wanted to either convert her grandma or have a celestial hit taken out on her life (convert or die!).

That has nothing to do with the woman being a possible old crotchety bag.

Well then never mind. Insane is the word. I have no idea why I interpreted the way I did.

 

[Nogbad]

So Mr Clingford I want to ask you if you believe in the raptrue of the church or not? Many denominationalist I recently discovered are preterist which is a big concern to me.

I am not sure why I am asking this but what the hell. Why would it be of concern? What difference does it make? Is one only saved if all the doctrines are right? Makes the Jesus thing totally pointless if that is the case.

 

[slingblade]

I am not sure why I am asking this but what the hell. Why would it be of concern? What difference does it make? Is one only saved if all the doctrines are right? Makes the Jesus thing totally pointless if that is the case.

I understand why she says she's concerned.

I don't understand where she got the idea it was any of her business, or why anyone should care about her concern.

However, it does make the point that, if there is a god, we should all be very glad that he is making the decisions, and not his followers!

 

[Nogbad]

I understand why she says she's concerned.

I don't understand where she got the idea it was any of her business, or why anyone should care about her concern.

However, it does make the point that, if there is a god, we should all be very glad that he is making the decisions, and not his followers!

It is true actually. The more I read the more relaxed I become. If there is a God there is no way they are going to be as mean and as mental as their followers.

Although arguably by not being mean and mental they are being mean and mental to their followers; who are looking forward to some serious roasting and hearty "told you so's". Nothing is ever simple is it?

 

[kbm99]

Probably Thessalonians and Matthew (I think).

Generally they will trot out a couple of OT verses as well. None of them unambiguously point to the revenge-fantasy "rapture" scenario that modern premillenial dispensationist evangelicals believe in, but so what?

Things sounds similar to my Anglican upbringing where the "Second Coming" was left as a vague thing, although the more literal minded did think Christ would actually come down out of the clouds. Fortunately, the Rapture made no appearance whatsoever.

At least in the Lutheran churches I attended as a kid, there was considerably more emphasis placed on how one should live than on what was going to happen after you died. Of course, a lot of it had to do with how (and why) one could live in a way presumably pleasing to God, but at least there was some suggestion that you should be "doing stuff" and not just believing.

I still laugh that some Xtians don't think Catholics are also Xtians.

That statement by that particular clergyman (do they call them that in the SBC? I am not sure.) was the beginning of the end of my brief flirtation with evangelical Christianity.

 

[steve s]

When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing?

Not at all. In the past 160 years we abolished slavery, had the civil rights movement and elected our first black president. Plenty of monarchies have given way to democracy. And we're finding ways to generate power without polluting our environment.

Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says

When haven't there been wars?

(Christiand know this)

Christians seem to "know" a lot of silly things.


I never cease to be amazed by what some people are capable of believing. This may be a bit of a derail, but how long will it take for all of this end-time madness to fade away and for people to realize that Jeezus just ain't gonna come again? 500 years? 1000 years? Ten thousand years from now will people like Kurious Kathy still be predicting that the end-times are upon us?

Steve S.

 

[Rasmus]

Please give an example of a time in history when this wasn't true.

Well, the end is drawing nearer and nearer every day. How could it be otherwise?

Same with the heat death of the universe: It's drawing nearer and nearer. Now, I won't claim the thought bothers me all that much, but it's technically true...

Okay, we could argue about whether those events - i.e. the end and the heat death of the universe - are going to happen at all, but as long as we assime they are, they are getting nearer. Of course, every event in the history of the universe is a sign for that, seeing that we just have to note the passing of time.

I shall grant you your point, though, and admit that there is certainly nothiung now that indicates that either event is close at hand in any meaningful sort of way.

 

[hallon]

People who deny Christ send themselves to hell. This is what Christians are warning you not to do, you have to make that descision yourself. [...]

As for the Op it's a burden we Christians must bear to try to reach our loved ones for Christ but it takes God doing something supernaturally in each person to make them open to receive him. I say we will never stop praying for the lost as we hope God will save them too. If God can save me I know he can save anyone.

Kurious_kathy, do you believe that it is an active decision to believe in your god? Or is it up to this god to "do something supernaturally" to make people open to receive him, as you put it? Those statements seem contradictory to me.

I'm an atheist, so I'm just trying to understand how you perceive this.

 

[Tanstaafl]

What is truly disturbing is how sin has ruined this world, this is why Christians long for heaven because we know it will be perfect, no more pain, war, suffering or evil of any kind. When you look at this world doesn't it seem obvious that it is perishing? Wars and rumurs of wars just as scripture says but the end drawing nearer each day. (Christiand know this)

The end of the story is Jesus wins, Satan loses but people either listen to Jesus or they are of their father the devil. It truly is black and white when it all comes down to the question,"Where do you want to spend eternity?" People who deny Christ send themselves to hell. This is what Christians are warning you not to do, you have to make that descision yourself.

As for the Op it's a burden we Christians must bear to try to reach our loved ones for Christ but it takes God doing something supernaturally in each person to make them open to receive him. I say we will never stop praying for the lost as we hope God will save them too. If God can save me I know he can save anyone.

Wait, are you saying that we're actually children of Satan? That's pretty sick, even for you.

I'm guessing you just cut and pasted this from a fundy website, barely having read it, so I won't take it personally.