The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

[Prometheus]

...Thats hollywood stuff....

Which part of {everybody gets as much as they want of whatever they want with no scarcity} isn't 'hollywood stuff,' again? This is the part that simply is completely unacceptable without the numbers -- that is, an in-depth engineering analysis describing exactly how this is achieved. Without that, TVP is nothing but, 'hollywood stuff'.

 

[Mr_Mix]

So, if you're including me in the group of humans who "have a hard time envisioning the future because they cling tenaciously to their old, outdated value system because they identify with it and value it even if it no longer holds real value" I'd like to know how you could come to such a conclusion. I mean, my post was three sentences! Is it that obvious? Honestly, I can't think of anything that I cherish. Nothing.

Honestly I didn't have you in mind when I said that. I was just generalizing.

And isn't an anguishing faux-nihilist teenager supposed to be into this kind of cool stuff? Does it make me antiquated and dogmatic because I haven't accepted the value-set of a robo-Marxist society which will never come to fruition?

Hehheh robo-Marxist, I like that Perhaps its true in some regards but a robo Marxist society isn't really Marxist at all simply because of the robo part. I cant say I've read all of Karl Marx early writings yet so I can't compare but the simple fact that it is 150 years old will likely make it irrelevant for the most part.

I'll assume the analogy about the past and utopia is to help put the future of society into perspective the simpletons here can understand.

Everyone here seems pretty smart. Probably smarter than I am. Its irrelevant. Smart people have bad habits, do dumb things, are blinded by indoctrination, emotion and so on. I suspect we all are to some degree. I know I have been my whole life. You can’t have parents, schools, governments or churches and not be affected by indoctrination. I guess the question is "are the ideas so entrenched that fresh thought becomes impossible?" It happens and its sad.

Regardless of your implications, you have pointed out the function of envisioning the future, and that's an inherent human trait. There's a difference between envisioning and predicting accurately though. The latter is something that isn't inherent in humans(well, at least those who aren't Nostradamus or Dutch.) However, the former is crucial in the maintenance and progress of society, if not most aspects of human and community life. Having a goal or a vision and plans to arrive there can certainly be a great thing. As I was saying about the predictability of the future, you don't know what will impact your vision. Something just might come up which makes your vision impractical and/or impossible.

I agree.

Well, the first thing for you consider is another element of human nature and that is competition.

I don't think its human nature to compete. Its just that we needed to compete in every scenario so far. I'm not competitive and I don't see a future for humans competing with each other.

Although it has its biological roots, frequently it manifests in the society of the capitalist system. You shouldn't have to look hard for an example. It's important to understand that much of the people who have benefited from such a system will give up their soul quicker than they would their earnings. There are too many people who would absolutely never participate in anything resembling a Venusian society, and unfortunately for you, they're the ones with the power in the world. I doubt a peaceful coexistence could happen between such ideologies.

I see you point and its interesting but even the people in a position of power have little to lose in comparison to the benefits of a RBE. It's just that their value system is messed up. We need to look long term.

Second, I've seen no evidence for any plans or methodologies for using technology in the fantastic ways Zeitgeist and proponents suggest, nor have I for bringing our current technology to a point where such uses are plausibly possible.

I don't think its all that high tech. Most of it exists today in some form. If one looks at some of the biggest projects going on all over the world in engineering, construction, computer systems and transportation, its all here or around the corner.

Aside from that, do you really think all problems are technical in nature?

All human problems are solved with technology. Yes.

Have the millennia of development in ethical philosophy been for absolutely nothing?

Thats a very interesting question. I think there is a natural law that presents itself when one asks "What are the near-empirical facets of nature and what do these understandings teach us about how we should govern our conduct on this planet?"

Can AI properly determine the importance of social issues without accurately mimicking human thought?

Perhaps not but we could give AI a framework that is relevant to us, give it the data it needs and let it work.

Also, I never said that all resources are physically scarce. I wanted a realistic explanation of how the resources which are naturally scarce are to be handled in this society. Demand will exceed supply. People will be denied of the achievement of intellectual pursuits and hence they will be deprived of reaching their "fullest potential."

I don't know what resources are naturally scarce as in "we must have them in order to thrive but the earth does not have enough for us." Is there any? If so, how can we solve that issue? Thats not a problem in a certain society. Its a global problem no matter what social system we live in.

However, none of this is going to convince any forum fanbois, so maybe posts like this are in vain.

I feel like I wont convince anyone as well but I do enjoy talking to people about it. I find it educating and very interesting. I think your posts are constructive and interesting so they are not in vain

I will say that if a mission statement, plan, or quantification of crucial claims are presented by the Zeitgeist Movement I'll reconsider my opinions. Best of luck changing the world!

Thanks!

 

[Mr_Mix]

Money is a medium of exchange in a world of scarcity that we no longer need to live in because technology helps humans to live in abundance. We don't need money anymore and we could begin to ween ourselves off of it. We have to because of the inherent problem of capitalism like differential advantage, and competition, just to name a few. It promotes the opposite of cooperation which will lead to inevitable disaster.

TVP doesn't have a medium of exchange in its distribution centers. You just get what you want. It may be recorded, it may not. I assume you would just pick up what you need or even have it delivered. It wouldn't even need to be tracked after it left the distribution center really. Nothing is set in stone but thats the idea. There wouldn't be a need to "fairly" distribute anything because fairness is built into the system. Its all abundant so people would not horde anything. Its too illogical and they wouldn't want to store it when the distro center is "hording it" for them already so to speak. Its hard to imagine because your only frame of reference is our current system of scarcity but if you were immersed in this new system it would be understandable that you wouldn't have an urge to horde things. Its almost a instinctive reaction to horde in this system because of the inherent scarcity we live in.

How can you say thats the only difference? Thats way off base. There is no "exchange" like there is now. Everyone may get the same amount, which is an abundant amount. No money, politics, corruption...

Communism as we have seen it in the past had money and low technology in comparison to today. Big problem, big difference.


He's 93 years old. I'm sure he knows Communism. Actually, that reminds me of a interesting story he told in an interview. He got kicked out of a communist meeting because of his ideas. He must have been about 15-20 years old at the time. I think its at about 32:30 of this link.
www.thevenusproject.com/media/audio/The_Venus_Project_08_Living-on-Purpose.mp3

There is also a funny story about a séance that he went to and called bull {snip} on. I forget where in the interview but its after the communist story. Good stuff.

Edited to fix confusing tags. Also, do not try to evade the autocensor.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

Busted! Acknowledged, and thanks for the fix!

 

[Prometheus]

I don't think its human nature to compete. Its just that we needed to compete in every scenario so far. I'm not competitive and I don't see a future for humans competing with each other.

Science says you are wrong about that. If TVP is truly going to make science based decisions, then it will have to contend with the fact that humans are a product of Evolution; competion is the very organizing principle which resulted in our existence. It's not just part of our nature, it, along with heredity and variation, is our very essence.

I don't know what resources are naturally scarce as in "we must have them in order to thrive but the earth does not have enough for us." Is there any? If so, how can we solve that issue? Thats not a problem in a certain society. Its a global problem no matter what social system we live in.

The definition of 'resource' is not, "must have in order to thrive." That definition belongs to the word 'necessity'. A resource is something useful, not something required. TVP's claim is not to be 'necessity-based'. It claims it is 'resource-based'? If it's actually only 'necessity-based' then that's a pretty blatant bait-and-switch scam.

 

[Mr_Mix]

Which part of {everybody gets as much as they want of whatever they want with no scarcity} isn't 'hollywood stuff,' again? This is the part that simply is completely unacceptable without the numbers -- that is, an in-depth engineering analysis describing exactly how this is achieved. Without that, TVP is nothing but, 'hollywood stuff'.

We would not get whatever we wanted. For instance we would not get a couple of jet planes each but we don't need it. We wouldn’t own anything except for immediate belongings like clothing. Everything we need for a full, thriving, educated life without servitude or scarcity would be provided in abundance.
I hear what your saying though. You need the numbers. The nuts and bolts. I can understand that. I need it too. I think a lot of people are working on it as we speak. I think a lot of people see the need for change as being more urgent than others see it so these people are working hard to get things rolling. Time will tell.

 

[paximperium]

How do you suggest we achieve a drastic reduction in corruption in all levels of government in every part of the world and not just "your own" country? What about how to end homelessness? Reduce crimes like gang violence or drugs? What about the growing issue of mental illnesses like anxiety and depression. Starvation? The rich poor gap? Corporate corruption? War?

Wow. Talk about dumping a pile separate and unrelated issues together. I'll answer the first one, YOU can't. The only way to decrease overall corruption in a system is oversight and proper checks and balances. Without ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, you can't force another country conform to those checks and balances. I'll even answer the second one: improve the economy, provide jobs and provide affortable housing.

It would be hard to solve these issues in the current system because the system is the cause of a lot of these problems. Many of these problems can be solved with built in solutions if the society is built with cooperation and human needs in mind.

You win a Nobel Prize...oh wait, you simply stated the obvious. Once you identify(and not just claim it exists) and figure out how to fix the many different system problems we have AND somehow make people cooperate from disparate countries, backgrouds, ideologies; you can be the new messiah.

Until then, people will just have to work on each problem one at a time.

A law is a failure of a system. The is no built in solution so you make a law. Its just an idea. There isn't even any such thing as a "criminal" in reality.

Garbage. A law is a set of rules determined by society to force or to deter a behavior. If someone does not live by society's rules, you get punished. You have the option of "opting out" by emigrating or living in a forest somewhere.

A criminal is as much a failure of the individual as of the system.

It's not my TVP.

Therefore you absolve yourself of any work or responsibility. Bravo.

We all know there is a "energy cost". I'm not denying that. Do you mean a monetary cost? Yes, in the current system, it might go up so it wont happen but thats irrelevant in a RBE.

No. There is an energy, resource, time, labor etc etc etc cost. It does not magically dissapear.

Interesting. Are you saying that invading Afghanistan was not about power and control but...what, killing terrorists so they don't come over here?

Yes.

Maybe the governments involved in the war there have good intentions and are concerned about a growing fundamentalist, West hating Muslim population. Are they doing the right thing?

Doing the right thing? In what way?

Many high ranking military personal over there and politicians are having doubt about the war in Afghanistan.

So? The Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?

We don't know until the future happens.

That is about as useless a statement I've read and very much expected from the well-wishers of TVP.

Thats a whole other topic right there. Thread jacking bait.

Or known as a dodge.

I'm not sure what you mean. The tech is out there already or being developed...developed in a system that is in no rush to develop tech that would hinder the fake economy. But its really already here.

And you claiming it does not make it true.

There is no flying cars and 5hit but some cool stuff that could be utilized for better, cleaner, faster, more efficient "stuff".

What makes you think this is not being done?

The beginning of a RBE would simply be a test city. A fair type environment. A display. An example. A demo. It would be a mile wide circular city. It would exist in this current system as an example of what can be done. It would run like a mini city of the future. It is being proposed and considered in a few countries already.

Still waiting and waiting and waiting.

A nice little utopia that is self sustaining with...what exactly? Oh yeah, money from the outside world, resources from the outside world, etc. etc. etc. from the outside world.

This isn’t even something that a politician in the current system would see as a threat. And why would they? The idea is that cities can be built with absolute efficiency and abundance in a society that has a goal of ending human suffering, war, competition for survival and so on.

Its not a threat to anything because it would be treated at the level of Disney World, a nice theme park.

Well I see now why you can have a hostile tone toward me. You're vested in this system and you have believed in it for...probably your whole life so perhaps you feel as if comments like mine are a shot at your identity hence the strong words. Makes sense. I cant blame you.

Thanks for the patronizing nonsense. If that satiates your delusion, go ahead and think so. What am I vested in? Hmmmm...

I'm hostile towards you because you are spouting nonsense. What I see is a bunch of Anarchist/Communist who function on delusion and fantasy. Your fantasy is equivalent to children pretending to save the world with magic.

Thats what you have been indoctrinated with by the current institutions since you were a child.

I can only laugh at your stereotyping. You have no idea where I was born or where I grew up do you?

A Republic coupled with a monetary system is a recipe for disaster in the long run

So says the guy who didn't even know that the US is a Republic.

So you vote once every two years from a few choices and the "representative" doesn't really need to "represent" you during that time and probably doesn't. The pros and cons for a republic or any political system can be debated forever but the long term problems with this system cannot be ignored.

Wow. Thanks for the vague non-claims. It makes you seem like you know what you are talking about...actually it doesn't.

The current political and monetary system is restrictive, too easily corrupted and manipulated by monetary-ism itself. Thats what I mean when I say its false or fake.

Agreed. Hence we should work to fix it instead of playacting and creating a fantasy.

Its becoming irrelevant in the face of the worlds problems.

What a big leap of non-logic.

The US Constitution cannot solve the worlds problems.

And it is not meant to. It is probably one of the best legal documents in human history.

Its also based on a system that cannot survive forever. Its for "The people" but we, as people, are progressing in a way that cause many of the old values to not be useful at a point in the future.

What the hell are you talking about? What values? What progression? You're a master at being as vague sounding as possible.

In the future much of any country's Bill of Rights or Constitution will be irrelevant, naturally. I am involved but I still see it as ineffective for real global change.

More vague statements that answer nothing and say absolutely nothing.

Especially when the worst of the two "evils" are still for war and the criminalization of drugs, for instance.

War is a tool. It is as "evil" as a gun. It has its uses and well as problems. For you to place the criminilization of drugs on the same level of war is an interesting insight into your mental maturity.

Does voting make me more "responsible" than those who do not vote locally or nationally?

Yes.

I can't blame some people when they see no vote at all as the strongest statement they can make.

Sure it is. I consider that "statement" on par with the apathetic and lazy crowd. Not much relevance.

Even the people you vote for have agendas, emotions, ulterior motives and in many cases absolutely no real skill for the changes that need to take place. It's a technical process and politicians are not technicians.

Looks like you've caught to the level of High School civics class. Congrats.

Why except the system as it is when it is quickly becoming less adequate for the worlds problems. New ideas must emerge that take into account the symbiotic nature of life on earth and politics cannot do that.

Agreed so it changes NOT vanished into a puff of smoke to be replaced by an untried fantasy based system.

Yes I'm one of them.

Not according to your own words: "I'm ignorant to many important subjects just like all of us are so why would I put my ignorant, worthless opinion on everything we need to do?"

Agreed From a monetary cost perspective the data is right but no one would want that outcome. So we don't do it. I don't know if politics can take responsibility for that though.

It does. Politics is the mish-mash of differing ideas that becomes social laws.
How does your TVP deal with this problem where human nature(which you seem to ignore) contradicts hard facts?

Canada's Minister of Science doesn't believe in evolution or even understand what it is. Plus he does acupuncture. The States has similar issues. Thats awful.

Yes and the system in place will take care of the problem or the people will put up with it or suffer the conseqence.

Yes, in the past.

And the present.

We haven't tried ideas like RBEs before so we cant say.

We haven't tried eating ten tons of dirt before but we know it is bad for you.

Marxism wasn't tried and had no technology to solve the problems of the world that are technical in nature so Marxism is irrelevant and not similar to an RBE in any significant way. We could not have tried a RBE because the tech wasn't there. An RBE-like idea is not perfect, but its better than what we have now.

Same thing, just dressed up in shiny clothes and robots. Do you realize how unoriginal this idea is?

Why assume I don't participate? Or that I don't understand it? Or that I don't want the responsibility to make decisions? You assume too much Pax.

In YOUR OWN WORDS:" I don’t want a real democracy because I would need to vote 100 times a day on every decision and I don’t have the knowledge to vote on everything. I'm ignorant to many important subjects just like all of us are so why would I put my ignorant, worthless opinion on everything we need to do?"
Tell me what should I assume?

At least I can admit that the issues are technical in nature and I personally don't have the technical ability to solve the problems we face.

If you have only a one trick pony, everything seems to fit your trick. No. Issues are NOT only technical in nature. They are often HUMAN in nature. Your blindness to this simple fact will never allow you or your movement to see the major fault in your project.

The idea is to lift the human species to its hight potential, to make sure everyone has a relevant education, is safe, and free. Everyone.

Sounds like a great idea which seems to be the same as our government's goals.

Those problems are technical in nature and do not require an opinion, once those goals are set.

That continues to be false no matter how often you repeat it. The problems are as much about human nature as much as technical problems. Wishing it away won't make it so.

No monitoring of citizens is ever talked about to my knowledge. The data that is monitored with sensor networks is available to all and is not related to surveillance of citizens.

Really? How will your AI make actual decisions without such information? As have been mentioned by others, the only way for your AI to be even semi-reliable is to monitor everything.

Many of the solutions that are being "waved" are solved by the system itself. They're built in. Any real problems need to be solved or it wont work so hand waving isn't in anyones interest when it comes to real problems. Also, the tech is not "unknown".

So you've claimed again and again and again without even some modicum of evidence. Bad start to your "data" and "fact" based society.

 

[paximperium]

We would not get whatever we wanted. For instance we would not get a couple of jet planes each but we don't need it.

Who are you(or whatever TVP related autocrat) to tell anyone what they need or don't need?

We wouldn’t own anything except for immediate belongings like clothing.

Sounds super...as in North Korea super.

Everything we need for a full, thriving, educated life without servitude or scarcity would be provided in abundance.

Sounds like the promises of communism doesn't it?

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Sounds like the promises of communism doesn't it?

Yep. A really nice idea, but when you factor in reality it falls flat on its face.

 

[Mr_Mix]

Garbage. A law is a set of rules determined by society to force or to deter a behavior. If someone does not live by society's rules, you get punished. You have the option of "opting out" by emigrating or living in a forest somewhere.

Why does it seem so hard to enforce these laws, these behaviors? Why is it so hard to obey them? How many good people are "criminals" on a daily basis as a result of these attempts to enforce these behaviors? Whats the underlining issue there?

A criminal is as much a failure of the individual as of the system.

Well we can agree that there is a failure of the system.

Therefore you absolve yourself of any work or responsibility. Bravo.

Just stating the facts.

No. There is an energy, resource, time, labor etc etc etc cost. It does not magically dissapear.

The labor costs would seem to magically disappear but it would be the technology that would make the labor deminish.

Yes.

I hope it is necessary because soldiers and Afghani civilians are getting killed too.

Doing the right thing? In what way?

Is invading a country and starting wars going to benefit in the long run? Also, I doubt that the government’s intentions are just about the liberalization of Afghanistan.

So? The Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?

Ya but they're still in the middle of the war.

Or known as a dodge.

I have no problem talking about that but its getting off topic. I bet we look back on this war like we do Vietnam. It seemed like a waste of time, lives and resources.

A nice little utopia that is self sustaining with...what exactly? Oh yeah, money from the outside world, resources from the outside world, etc. etc. etc. from the outside world.

A lot of what you would see in a demo city could be self sustaining but there would still be the current system that it would have to operate in. It could be a good example though. A lot of aspects of the demo city would run like it would in a RBE.

Its not a threat to anything because it would be treated at the level of Disney World, a nice theme park.

It would be suggesting a new way of doing thing in society in general and Disney World is not doing that.

Thanks for the patronizing nonsense. If that satiates your delusion, go ahead and think so. What am I vested in? Hmmmm...

I just get that impression. Sorry if I'm all wrong there.

I'm hostile towards you because you are spouting nonsense. What I see is a bunch of Anarchist/Communist who function on delusion and fantasy. Your fantasy is equivalent to children pretending to save the world with magic.

There are some similarities in a TVP scenario and Anarchy as far as the lack of stratification, hierarchy. I think that’s where it pretty much ends though. I don’t think I function in dilution or fantasy because I work quite well in the current system. I adapt to it very well and it is a workable framework for most people, including me. Thinking of a better design for a future society isn’t delusional. I would like to see many aspects of a RBE be implemented in my lifetime.

I can only laugh at your stereotyping. You have no idea where I was born or where I grew up do you?

That’s true. I can only glean some info from your text here. I'll try not to assume too much as well.

So says the guy who didn't even know that the US is a Republic.

Hehheh I didnt learn that the US was a republic in this forum. A Republic Democracy isn’t really democratic in the technical sense. It's watered down to the point that it isn’t effective for change. Quite the opposite when it’s existing in a monetary system. Thats not good in the long run. Its pretty much been "long term" for a while now.

What the hell are you talking about? What values? What progression? You're a master at being as vague sounding as possible.

I mean the values that are laid out in a country constitution and human's evolution and progression.

More vague statements that answer nothing and say absolutely nothing.

I'm saying your vote isn’t effective to make real change. Also, any changes are superficial and do not address underlining problems. If your agenda is to uphold the same values and power structures then why would you make real changes?

War is a tool. It is as "evil" as a gun. It has its uses and well as problems. For you to place the criminilization of drugs on the same level of war is an interesting insight into your mental maturity.

I understand. "Evil" does not even exist but what I'm getting at is the two people that end up competition for president have similar goals which are to uphold the current way of doing things. Drug law and war are good examples. I was not equating the two. They’re both awful though.

Sure it is. I consider that "statement" on par with the apathetic and lazy crowd. Not much relevance.

So people choose to not vote because they're lazy but never because they don't want to participate in a system they don't believe in?

Looks like you've caught to the level of High School civics class. Congrats. Agreed so it changes NOT vanished into a puff of smoke to be replaced by an untried fantasy based system.

This system will not vanish and be replaced with fantasy but over decades it will evolve into a better system and that system might be "post scarcity".

Not according to your own words: "I'm ignorant to many important subjects just like all of us are so why would I put my ignorant, worthless opinion on everything we need to do?"

Looks like you misunderstand me. Being informed and knowing everything about every subject in all of human knowledge are different things.

How does your TVP deal with this problem where human nature(which you seem to ignore) contradicts hard facts?

I don’t ignore human nature. It doesn’t exist. It works pretty well as a cop-out excuse for many human's to keep doing what they are doing though. "I cant help killing, competing and destroying! Its human nature!" Please.

Same thing, just dressed up in shiny clothes and robots. Do you realize how unoriginal this idea is?

Its not totally original. If it is or is not original is totally irrelevant.

In YOUR OWN WORDS:" I don’t want a real democracy because I would need to vote 100 times a day on every decision and I don’t have the knowledge to vote on everything. I'm ignorant to many important subjects just like all of us are so why would I put my ignorant, worthless opinion on everything we need to do?"
Tell me what should I assume?

The longer I vote and remain involved in the current social system the more I become convinced that there are better ways we could do things in the future.

If you have only a one trick pony, everything seems to fit your trick. No. Issues are NOT only technical in nature. They are often HUMAN in nature. Your blindness to this simple fact will never allow you or your movement to see the major fault in your project.

And what makes them Human in nature? What is that?

That continues to be false no matter how often you repeat it. The problems are as much about human nature as much as technical problems. Wishing it away won't make it so.

I'm not wishing it away.

Really? How will your AI make actual decisions without such information? As have been mentioned by others, the only way for your AI to be even semi-reliable is to monitor everything.

The AI doesn’t need to worry about us. We do.

So you've claimed again and again and again without even some modicum of evidence. Bad start to your "data" and "fact" based society.

At this point, the idea of a RBE is just that. Ideas. There is little data to support the idea. But there is some data in some areas. When you think about the redesign of a society, data is slow to acquire. You really need to move in that direction within the current system and learn as you go. It’s never been done before. There are many thing we could do now to make a better society for eveyone. We don't know what would happen if we legalized all drugs. We can guess but we would need to take steps in that direction to find out. All the data in the world won't predict the futute.

 

[Prometheus]

Garbage. A law is a set of rules determined by society to force or to deter a behavior. If someone does not live by society's rules, you get punished. You have the option of "opting out" by emigrating or living in a forest somewhere.

Why does it seem so hard to enforce these laws, these behaviors? Why is it so hard to obey them? How many good people are "criminals" on a daily basis as a result of these attempts to enforce these behaviors? Whats the underlining issue there?

Okay, I'll bite: What is the underlying issue there?

A criminal is as much a failure of the individual as of the system.

Well we can agree that there is a failure of the system.

Ahh. The dreaded 'Devil System Made Me Do It' defense. TVP sounds more and more like a religion all the time. Are you sure Fresco isn't really a Raellian?

Therefore you absolve yourself of any work or responsibility. Bravo.

Just stating the facts.

Out of curiousity, just what work/responsibilities do you see yourself undertaking in a TVP world? How/what will you contribute?

No. There is an energy, resource, time, labor etc etc etc cost. It does not magically dissapear.

The labor costs would seem to magically disappear but it would be the technology that would make the labor deminish.

You previously said that humans would still be involved in designing, building, programming and maintaining the magic robots. That's labor.

A nice little utopia that is self sustaining with...what exactly? Oh yeah, money from the outside world, resources from the outside world, etc. etc. etc. from the outside world.

A lot of what you would see in a demo city could be self sustaining but there would still be the current system that it would have to operate in. It could be a good example though. A lot of aspects of the demo city would run like it would in a RBE.

In which case it's not really demonstrating anything except for the present system's ability to provide for a city full of dependant hangers-on who aren't contributing anything back. Such a city would actually constitute proof that our present system is better than TVP could ever be.

Its not a threat to anything because it would be treated at the level of Disney World, a nice theme park.

It would be suggesting a new way of doing thing in society in general and Disney World is not doing that.

The decision not to compare TVP to a fantasy theme park is perhaps the most reasonable part of your entire argument. Fantasy theme parks actually have a working business model.

I'm hostile towards you because you are spouting nonsense. What I see is a bunch of Anarchist/Communist who function on delusion and fantasy. Your fantasy is equivalent to children pretending to save the world with magic.

There are some similarities in a TVP scenario and Anarchy as far as the lack of stratification, hierarchy. I think that’s where it pretty much ends though. I don’t think I function in dilution or fantasy because I work quite well in the current system. I adapt to it very well and it is a workable framework for most people, including me. Thinking of a better design for a future society isn’t delusional. I would like to see many aspects of a RBE be implemented in my lifetime.

@the part I bolded: Thinking that's what TVP is is the delusional part. Pretty pictures and a bunch of unsupported assertions do not constitute a design by any stretch.

So says the guy who didn't even know that the US is a Republic.

Hehheh I didnt learn that the US was a republic in this forum. A Republic Democracy isn’t really democratic in the technical sense. It's watered down to the point that it isn’t effective for change. Quite the opposite when it’s existing in a monetary system. Thats not good in the long run. Its pretty much been "long term" for a while now.

If, by 'technical' you mean to say 'non-republican' then you are correct that republican democracy 'isn't really democratic in the technical sense.' Otherwise, your statement is gibberish.

More vague statements that answer nothing and say absolutely nothing.

I'm saying your vote isn’t effective to make real change. Also, any changes are superficial and do not address underlining problems. If your agenda is to uphold the same values and power structures then why would you make real changes?

This sounds as if your primary complaint with democracy is that its democratic. Are you sure you're not a Marxist?

Sure it is. I consider that "statement" on par with the apathetic and lazy crowd. Not much relevance.

So people choose to not vote because they're lazy but never because they don't want to participate in a system they don't believe in?

Choosing not to participate for even a single day in the system that safeguards you and your belongings, that nourishes, shelters, clothes and entertains you, that makes it possible for you to sit around dreaming up all this nonsense in the first place and maintains the worldwide computer network on which you spout it, just because you don't 'believe in it? Yes, I would call that LAZY.

Looks like you've caught to the level of High School civics class. Congrats. Agreed so it changes NOT vanished into a puff of smoke to be replaced by an untried fantasy based system.

This system will not vanish and be replaced with fantasy but over decades it will evolve into a better system and that system might be "post scarcity".

LOL. So rather than actually change the system they despise, Venusians just want to sit around and wait for it to change all by itself, then they plan to take credit for the change!

How does your TVP deal with this problem where human nature(which you seem to ignore) contradicts hard facts?

I don’t ignore human nature. It doesn’t exist. It works pretty well as a cop-out excuse for many human's to keep doing what they are doing though. "I cant help killing, competing and destroying! Its human nature!" Please.

Is that what you think we mean when we say 'human nature'? No wonder you're confused! First of all, claiming that human nature doesn't exist is nonsensical. Humans have something which allows us to define them as human. Whatever that something turns out to be is our nature. Certainly, many people disagree about just what that nature is, but saying it doesn't exist at all is just irrational. As to the question of what that nature is, I suggest you might want to read up on some science. Particularly since you seem to think TVP will be science-based.

Same thing, just dressed up in shiny clothes and robots. Do you realize how unoriginal this idea is?

Its not totally original. If it is or is not original is totally irrelevant.

Not as long as you wish to ignore the fact that the arguments/evidence against it need not be original either. In fact, both sides of this discussion have, thus far, been nothing but old hat. Add some more History to the reading list, when you get through with Science.

In YOUR OWN WORDS:" I don’t want a real democracy because I would need to vote 100 times a day on every decision and I don’t have the knowledge to vote on everything. I'm ignorant to many important subjects just like all of us are so why would I put my ignorant, worthless opinion on everything we need to do?"
Tell me what should I assume?

The longer I vote and remain involved in the current social system the more I become convinced that there are better ways we could do things in the future.

Do you actually think there's anybody on Earth who doesn't think that we could do things better in the future?

That continues to be false no matter how often you repeat it. The problems are as much about human nature as much as technical problems. Wishing it away won't make it so.

I'm not wishing it away.

Well, then what are you doing about it?

Really? How will your AI make actual decisions without such information? As have been mentioned by others, the only way for your AI to be even semi-reliable is to monitor everything.

The AI doesn’t need to worry about us. We do.

Well then why bother with AI in the first place?

So you've claimed again and again and again without even some modicum of evidence. Bad start to your "data" and "fact" based society.

At this point, the idea of a RBE is just that. Ideas. There is little data to support the idea. But there is some data in some areas. When you think about the redesign of a society, data is slow to acquire. You really need to move in that direction within the current system and learn as you go. It’s never been done before. There are many thing we could do now to make a better society for eveyone. We don't know what would happen if we legalized all drugs. We can guess but we would need to take steps in that direction to find out. All the data in the world won't predict the futute.

So TVP really is a religion after all....

 

[paximperium]

Why does it seem so hard to enforce these laws, these behaviors? Why is it so hard to obey them? How many good people are "criminals" on a daily basis as a result of these attempts to enforce these behaviors?

So you're blaming laws for criminals? Greeeaat...

Whats the underlining issue there?

Why don't you tell us? Tell us the TVP answer.

Well we can agree that there is a failure of the system.

Great, a child playing "gotcha" and ignoring the jist of the point. Criminal behavior/activity is a combination of a multitude of factors. Economic, social, genetics, judicial etc etc etc. Your over simplification of this complicated issue shows a lack of maturity in your thought process.

Just stating the facts.

What facts?

The labor costs would seem to magically disappear but it would be the technology that would make the labor deminish.

Who designed the robot? Who tested the design? Who tested the code for bugs? Who built the robot? Who services the robots?

Is invading a country and starting wars going to benefit in the long run?

It depends. The Jews, French and Poles seem to think so. So do the South Koreans.

Also, I doubt that the government’s intentions are just about the liberalization of Afghanistan.

Never was. It was to kill Al-queda operatives and the destroy a terrorist safe-haven.

A lot of what you would see in a demo city could be self sustaining but there would still be the current system that it would have to operate in. It could be a good example though. A lot of aspects of the demo city would run like it would in a RBE.

So, a demo city run by anarchist, sustained from resources from the outside and with technology that does not yet exist...yeah, this will be very amusing.

It would be suggesting a new way of doing thing in society in general and Disney World is not doing that.

True. It was a false analogy. Disney World is actually very efficient, profitable and well run. Your TVP city will not even be close.

There are some similarities in a TVP scenario and Anarchy as far as the lack of stratification, hierarchy. I think that’s where it pretty much ends though.

Really? So who governs? Makes decisions? What about the sociopathic criminals? Do tell.

I don’t think I function in dilution or fantasy because I work quite well in the current system. I adapt to it very well and it is a workable framework for most people, including me. Thinking of a better design for a future society isn’t delusional. I would like to see many aspects of a RBE be implemented in my lifetime.

That is the delusional part.

Hehheh I didnt learn that the US was a republic in this forum. A Republic Democracy isn’t really democratic in the technical sense. It's watered down to the point that it isn’t effective for change.

You failed civics class didn't you? The US is a Representative Democracy. It is democratic in every sense of the word. Just about every public service position from School boards to mayors to state leadershiip to senatorial positions are elected positions. Even you could run for a position if you wanted to. What we are not is an Athenian style democracy.

Quite the opposite when it’s existing in a monetary system. Thats not good in the long run. Its pretty much been "long term" for a while now.

The vagueness of your claims is most unimpressive.

I mean the values that are laid out in a country constitution and human's evolution and progression.

And you are wrong. The US Constitution continues to be one of the greatest legal documents ever written. It provides more rights to its citizens than just about any country. It evolves with the times, it is a living document.

I'm saying your vote isn’t effective to make real change. Also, any changes are superficial and do not address underlining problems. If your agenda is to uphold the same values and power structures then why would you make real changes?

Because some elected officials actually care and many actually work to change the "values" and "power structure".

I understand. "Evil" does not even exist but what I'm getting at is the two people that end up competition for president have similar goals which are to uphold the current way of doing things.

Really? Are you capable of mind reading? Lincoln, Roosevelt and even Reagan wasn't really with the plan were they? You should read your history as to the changes they made to "current ways of doing things". While you're at it, read up on how the US government was like in the mid 1800s.

So people choose to not vote because they're lazy but never because they don't want to participate in a system they don't believe in?

Basically yes. If you "don't believe in the system", why aren't you out fielding and supporting your own candidate and voting for that candidate? Oh, because you're too lazy.

This system will not vanish and be replaced with fantasy but over decades it will evolve into a better system and that system might be "post scarcity".

It is already happening and shockingly it has already happened. TVP really needs to catch up.

Looks like you misunderstand me. Being informed and knowing everything about every subject in all of human knowledge are different things.
I don’t ignore human nature. It doesn’t exist. It works pretty well as a cop-out excuse for many human's to keep doing what they are doing though. "I cant help killing, competing and destroying! Its human nature!" Please.

What nonsense. Human nature are specific behavioral traits that define us as human. They are universal human behaviors. Competition, potential violent behavior etc. are all human traits and are a part of our nature. You really need to read up on the science if you're claming that TVP is "fact" and "science" based.

You're also ignoring the multitude of genetic and bahavioral disorders that lead people to sociopathic and violent bahavior.

Its not totally original. If it is or is not original is totally irrelevant.

So do I get to use the same unoriginal arguments used against communism and anarchy?

The longer I vote and remain involved in the current social system the more I become convinced that there are better ways we could do things in the future.

Yes, so does a multitude of people. You're not special.

And what makes them Human in nature? What is that?

Current research points to genetics as a major player.

I'm not wishing it away.

So you'll genetic engineer it away? Drug it away?

The AI doesn’t need to worry about us. We do.

So a human makes decisions? You have leaders?

At this point, the idea of a RBE is just that. Ideas. There is little data to support the idea. But there is some data in some areas. When you think about the redesign of a society, data is slow to acquire. You really need to move in that direction within the current system and learn as you go. It’s never been done before. There are many thing we could do now to make a better society for eveyone. We don't know what would happen if we legalized all drugs. We can guess but we would need to take steps in that direction to find out. All the data in the world won't predict the futute.

And unless TVP actually presents data and proper plans, it continues to be nonsensical fantasy.

 

[balrog666]

 

[richman2112]

Personally I think the zeitgeist movement is based on Roddenberry but I could be wrong. Problem is, we dont have replicators and we dont have starships where we can spend all our time exploring strange new worlds and seeking new life and new civilizations. So, until we do their way of life is a pipe dream at least and something to shoot for at best. I first saw the movie and really thought there might be a way to instill their RBE but then I woke up and remembered that we are all stuck on earth in a crowd and it makes us quite nasty. Not to mention that we are animals and still have not bred the desire to fling poo at each other out yet. Also, I dont think they have simply taken America into account, in the US even the poor people can get cable and a few luxuries and the middle and upper class can get even more. Now, simple observation lends one to see that just these small comforts have produced a society full of overweight codependent people who could care less about learning much more than the talkin picture box will teach them. This certainly does no describe everyone but there still seems to be a plague going on. The ZM people seem to think that providing all these means will somehow inspire people to be creative and advance science and blah blah blah . I would seriously have to wonder what observation this idea is based on.

 

[pickles1]

Hi all,

I have read things like "this is for people who don't want to work" and "fresco doesn't know what communism is" to "I don't want computers to run my life"

Are you people serious?

It seems like a great many of you haven't watched the movie, let alone looked at the venus project website (thevenusproject.com) which has a very good FAQ or thezeitgeistmovement.com

You took the time to write page long essays yet haven't bothered to look into it, so basically what you don't know your making up as you go along.

For the sake of this topic, I'll go over just a few points.

Some of you keep going on and on, and on and on about communism.

Communism being similar to a resource-based economy or The Venus Project is an erroneous concept. Communism has money, banks, armies, police, prisons, charismatic personalities, social stratification, and is managed by appointed leaders. The Venus Project's aim is to surpass the need for the use of money. Police, prisons and the military would no longer be necessary when goods, services, healthcare, and education are available to all people. The Venus Project would replace politicians with a cybernated society in which all of the physical entities are managed and operated by computerized systems. The only region that the computers do not operate or manage is the surveillance of human beings. This would be completely unnecessary and considered socially offensive. A society that uses technology without human concern has no basis of survival. Communism has no blueprint or methodology to carry out their ideals and along with capitalism, fascism, and socialism, will ultimately go down in history as failed social experiments.

Human nature vs human behaviour

There is no such thing as human nature in the conventional sense of being a set of predetermined, preprogrammed behaviors and values to which all human beings are predisposed. What we are concerned with is human behavior and values, which can certainly be changed. If they could not, we would still be living in caves

The question we should be concerned with is, "What are the factors that shape human behavior?" human behavior is just as lawful as any natural phenomenon. Our customs, behaviors, and values are by-products of our culture. If the environment is unaltered, similar problems and behaviors will reoccur. The Venus Project proposes to provide an environment that will bring out the best in human behavior and to extend maximum courtesy to all nations.

Take, for example, the situation witnessed after W.W. II: even the most respectable families could be seen fighting over scraps of food. When people's basic needs are not met, they resort to whatever behavior is necessary to ensure the necessities of life for themselves and their families. By making the necessities of life available to all in this participatory democracy and through a meaningful and productive education, we can dramatically reduce counterproductive behavior.

Please please read up on the movement, watch the video before you criticize it.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Communism being similar to a resource-based economy or The Venus Project is an erroneous concept.

No....

Communism has money, banks, armies, police, prisons, charismatic personalities, social stratification, and is managed by appointed leaders.

Not in theory. Not in its "idealized form". Not in what was actually laid out by Karl Marx. It lacked all those things, and that is why it is fair to compare what happens to unrealistic idealized systems, e.g. Marxism, when they are actually attempted within the bounds of reality.

The Venus Project's aim is to surpass the need for the use of money.

As was Communism.

Police, prisons and the military would no longer be necessary when goods, services, healthcare, and education are available to all people.

You all write this, and believe this. Yet you fail to understand that crime is a lot more than simply a matter of economics. It is for this reason alone that I lack any respect for TVP.

The Venus Project would replace politicians with a cybernated society in which all of the physical entities are managed and operated by computerized systems.

And the issue of fundamental chaos is never taken into consideration. There is too much to predict, and no computer system will ever be capable of effectively planning an economy 100% to prevent all scarcity. This is called reality.

The only region that the computers do not operate or manage is the surveillance of human beings. This would be completely unnecessary and considered socially offensive.

Than you have no means to prevent a capitalist society and social stratification from forming naturally within your system. There will always be things and services people want, and those willing to provide them for a profit. You cannot stop this.

A society that uses technology without human concern has no basis of survival.

All technology is designed by humans to serve a human purpose, even the bad technology.

Communism has no blueprint or methodology to carry out their ideals...

Oh they believed they did. They thought that technology would develop to remove scarcity from society, and this would remove all social stratification...oh wait. Why does this sound familiar?

and along with capitalism,...

Isn't a system, just a name we associate to the human behavior of exchanging goods and services.

fascism,...

A perversion of industry and state, with a strong authoritative control.

and socialism, will ultimately go down in history as failed social experiments.

Well Communism, and fascism will be looked down upon I will give you that. Capitalism isn't an experiment, it is just the name to describe what was already occuring.

 

[Prometheus]

Hi all,

I have read things like "this is for people who don't want to work" and "fresco doesn't know what communism is" to "I don't want computers to run my life"

Are you people serious?

It seems like a great many of you haven't watched the movie, let alone looked at the venus project website ....<snip>

Watched the movie, read every word on the ridiculous website, tired of all the dumb BS. Numbers. Give specific plans--with numbers, and calculations--that can be fact-checked. Fresco doesn't do that anywhere. The movie doesn't do that anywhere. The website doesn't do that anywhere. Sorry if I'm a bit short; you're just the latest in a long line of failures. And don't even think of telling us to go buy one of the books or videos. Put up or shut up.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Watched the movie, read every word on the ridiculous website, tired of all the dumb BS. Numbers. Give specific plans--with numbers, and calculations--that can be fact-checked. Fresco doesn't do that anywhere. The movie doesn't do that anywhere. The website doesn't do that anywhere. Sorry if I'm a bit short; you're just the latest in a long line of failures. And don't even think of telling us to go buy one of the books or videos. Put up or shut up.

What he said.

 

[balrog666]

If you can't explain it and answer a few simple questions, why would anyone give a Flying Fickle Finger of Fate about some silly video?

 

[pickles1]

I'm not going over all the points you made, because it's evident you need to do a touch of research.

As I said in my first post, what you don't know your making up as you go along.

This for example.


Quote:
Police, prisons and the military would no longer be necessary when goods, services, healthcare, and education are available to all people.

You all write this, and believe this. Yet you fail to understand that crime is a lot more than simply a matter of economics. It is for this reason alone that I lack any respect for TVP.

>You need to consider the transition period. Initially there would still be crime, but it would decrease a massive percentage. Obviously not ALL crime is a matter of economics but a massive, massive percentage is.

Please look into it, and if you have questions ask on the zeitgeistmovement.com you will get a comprehensive answer.

Hypothetically consider this.

We live in a RBE, and some nut job wants a monetary system, now consider how many problems would be involved in that? ten fold more problems and objections would arise.

I'm not saying TVP is perfect, but it is, in any way shape or form a hell of alot better than what we have now.

How anyone can defend a system that see's 32,000 children die from starvation and preventable diseases everyday simply because there is no profit to be made is beyond me. Not only in third world countries, the amount of suffering all around us, and a massive percentage is because of money.

Seriously, what will it take before you consider any alternatives? 300,000 kids dying everyday? 500,000? how many people need to suffer before you will even consider anything else?

What I see here on this forum is a lot of egocentricity.

 

[dudalb]

Notice how most TVP supporters seem to be of high school and college age...and we all know how supceptible people in that age group are to any neat sounding idea that comes along.regardless of reality.