The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

[AWPrime]

As for housing I think we have alternatives to wood that could be used. Also, your right, wood is cheap. That’s why we are destroying forests. Because it’s cheap. See where I'm going with that? We do things now because of monetary concern which we would not do in a VP scenario. I'm sure we can use material other than wood to build homes.

You know in the Netherlands we use very little wood building homes. Making houses entirely of wood is illegal here. And this is how we should do things. Capitalism works well, you just need laws to stop the excesses. That combination works far better, then a bundle of wishful thinking.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Impossible to eliminate scarcity in any society? I doubt that very much. Impossible is a pretty strong word.

But an honest assessment of the impossibilty of predicting every slight occurance within a complex system, meaning scarcity would always occur. Even with magical robots.

Hand waving with smart (rule 10) reply in 3..2..1

 

[paximperium]

You know in the Netherlands we use very little wood building homes. Making houses entirely of wood is illegal here. And this is how we should do things. Capitalism works well, you just need laws to stop the excesses. That combination works far better, then a bundle of wishful thinking.

Why is it illegal?

 

[Prometheus]

...Making houses entirely of wood is illegal here...

Why is it illegal?

Wood makes very poor plumbing and electrical wiring.

 

[paximperium]

Wood makes very poor plumbing and electrical wiring.

Making it illegal for environmental reasons is justified if the population agrees with it especially in a small country like the Netherlands but I doubt it is based on the best economic sense which doesn't really support the TVP fantasy or robots and plastic houses.

 

[Prometheus]

Making it illegal for environmental reasons is justified if the population agrees with it especially in a small country like the Netherlands but I doubt it is based on the best economic sense which doesn't really support the TVP fantasy or robots and plastic houses.

Is it actually illegal there? I thought it was used in the countryside, but not in the cities for fire-protection reasons.

 

[AWPrime]

Why is it illegal?

Its mostly about safety. The building codes are very strict. In the dense Dutch cities/villages full wooden homes would be an unacceptable risk.

And it also is in part connected to scarcity, it quickly became clear there wasn't enough build enough homes with wood around here and also stone structures last far longer.

Is it actually illegal there? I thought it was used in the countryside, but not in the cities for fire-protection reasons.

Depends if you want to store something or actually life in it and if so you would need to take extra safety measures (with includes higher insurance).

 

[AWPrime]

which doesn't really support the TVP fantasy or robots and plastic houses.

There isn't anything in the world that supports TVP.

 

[paximperium]

Who would've thought the Netherlands were so flammable?

 

[Mr_Mix]

This whole idea that TVP dispenses with money is just wrong. Money is nothing other than a medium of exchange.

Money is a medium of exchange in a world of scarcity that we no longer need to live in because technology helps humans to live in abundance. We don't need money anymore and we could begin to ween ourselves off of it. We have to because of the inherent problem of capitalism like differential advantage, and competition, just to name a few. It promotes the opposite of cooperation which will lead to inevitable disaster.

TVP has that in it's "distribution centers". It just isn't on paper, so to speak. In order to distribute resources fairly to everyone, you have to have some means of recording who's already gotten how much of whatever. Whatever that recording mechanism is, that's money.

TVP doesn't have a medium of exchange in its distribution centers. You just get what you want. It may be recorded, it may not. I assume you would just pick up what you need or even have it delivered. It wouldn't even need to be tracked after it left the distribution center really. Nothing is set in stone but thats the idea. There wouldn't be a need to "fairly" distribute anything because fairness is built into the system. Its all abundant so people would not horde anything. Its too illogical and they wouldn't want to store it when the distro center is "hording it" for them already so to speak. Its hard to imagine because your only frame of reference is our current system of scarcity but if you were immersed in this new system it would be understandable that you wouldn't have an urge to horde things. Its almost a instinctive reaction to horde in this system because of the inherent scarcity we live in.

The only real difference between TVP and the present system of exchange, is that TVP requires that everybody receive the same amount of that [whatever]

How can you say thats the only difference? Thats way off base. There is no "exchange" like there is now. Everyone may get the same amount, which is an abundant amount. No money, politics, corruption...

-- in other words, it's Communism.

Communism as we have seen it in the past had money and low technology in comparison to today. Big problem, big difference.

Fresco claims he's not a Communist, but he's wrong--he just doesn't know what a Communist is.

He's 93 years old. I'm sure he knows Communism. Actually, that reminds me of a interesting story he told in an interview. He got kicked out of a communist meeting because of his ideas. He must have been about 15-20 years old at the time. I think its at about 32:30 of this link.
www.thevenusproject.com/media/audio/The_Venus_Project_08_Living-on-Purpose.mp3

There is also a funny story about a séance that he went to and called bull {snip} on. I forget where in the interview but its after the communist story. Good stuff.

Edited to fix confusing tags. Also, do not try to evade the autocensor.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

 

[fullflavormenthol]

No he just doesn't know what communism is. All the things that you point to as differences between the Venus Projects and communism are actually the same differences between Marxist communism and what came later. The Venus Project is the perfect example of someone believing they are a genius because they are too ignorant to realize they are ripping off another person's work. In this case Karl Marx.

 

[theprestige]

He got kicked out of a communist meeting because of his ideas. He must have been about 15-20 years old at the time.

I'm pretty sure that right there is evidence against him knowing what communism is.

 

[Mr_Mix]

It is rather unfortunate that this is the case. Double edged sword I guess. I've found it's best to either ignore them or respond as if you were never insulted in the first place. Otherwise you just get sucked in.

Yeah it happens. Its the nature of communicating in forums no matter which one really. No big deal.

 

[Mr_Mix]

Why?

I surmise that in the beginning you would see more human supervision and as time went on you would see less because of technology and human experience with using that kind of technology.

 

[Prometheus]

He's 93 years old. I'm sure he knows Communism. Actually, that reminds me of a interesting story he told in an interview. He got kicked out of a communist meeting because of his ideas. He must have been about 15-20 years old at the time. I think its at about 32:30 of this link.
www.thevenusproject.com/media/audio/The_Venus_Project_08_Living-on-Purpose.mp3

There is also a funny story about a séance that he went to and called bull5hit on. I forget where in the interview but its after the communist story. Good stuff.

I would very much appreciate it if you would fix the [quote] [/quote] tags in this post so as to not make it appear as if your words are mine.

 

[balrog666]

He's 93 years old. I'm sure he knows Communism. Actually, that reminds me of a interesting story he told in an interview. He got kicked out of a communist meeting because of his ideas. He must have been about 15-20 years old at the time. I think its at about 32:30 of this link.
www.thevenusproject.com/media/audio/The_Venus_Project_08_Living-on-Purpose.mp3

There is also a funny story about a séance that he went to and called bull5hit on. I forget where in the interview but its after the communist story. Good stuff.

Whomever the "he" is that you refer to, he has long since lost any sense of what is and isn't bull5hit is he advocates this nonsense.

 

[Mr_Mix]

I have many ideas. Be specific.

How do you suggest we achieve a drastic reduction in corruption in all levels of government in every part of the world and not just "your own" country? What about how to end homelessness? Reduce crimes like gang violence or drugs? What about the growing issue of mental illnesses like anxiety and depression. Starvation? The rich poor gap? Corporate corruption? War? It would be hard to solve these issues in the current system because the system is the cause of a lot of these problems. Many of these problems can be solved with built in solutions if the society is built with cooperation and human needs in mind. A law is a failure of a system. The is no built in solution so you make a law. Its just an idea. There isn't even any such thing as a "criminal" in reality.

Why don't you and your TVP do that and get back to us?

It's not my TVP.

Yes I see where you're going. You're going to attempt to hand wave away cost by equating it with money alone and believe cost will magically dissipate into thin air with your Resource Based Economy.

I wouldn't want to hand wave because that doesn't fix the real problems. Neither does a system that aggravates those problems. We all know there is a "energy cost". I'm not denying that.

Sure you could but cost would go up anyway.

Do you mean a monetary cost? Yes, in the current system, it might go up so it wont happen but thats irrelevant in a RBE.

9/11 and 3000 dead civilians proves you wrong.

Interesting. Are you saying that invading Afghanistan was not about power and control but...what, killing terrorists so they don't come over here? Maybe the governments involved in the war there have good intentions and are concerned about a growing fundamentalist, West hating Muslim population. Are they doing the right thing? Many high ranking military personal over there and politicians are having doubt about the war in Afghanistan. We don't know until the future happens. Thats a whole other topic right there. Thread jacking bait.

How do you know this or is another vague claim with great promises but no details?

I'm not sure what you mean. The tech is out there already or being developed...developed in a system that is in no rush to develop tech that would hinder the fake economy. But its really already here. There is no flying cars and 5hit but some cool stuff that could be utilized for better, cleaner, faster, more efficient "stuff". The beginning of a RBE would simply be a test city. A fair type environment. A display. An example. A demo. It would be a mile wide circular city. It would exist in this current system as an example of what can be done. It would run like a mini city of the future. It is being proposed and considered in a few countries already. This isn’t even something that a politician in the current system would see as a threat. And why would they? The idea is that cities can be built with absolute efficiency and abundance in a society that has a goal of ending human suffering, war, competition for survival and so on.

I vote about every 2 years for state representatives, senators, house representatives, various Propositions, school boards etc. and for the President of the United States. All of this is spelled out in Constitution of the United States and the State Constitution as well. I also do some political stuff with my local political party.

Well I see now why you can have a hostile tone toward me. You're vested in this system and you have believed in it for...probably your whole life so perhaps you feel as if comments like mine are a shot at your identity hence the strong words. Makes sense. I cant blame you. Thats what you have been indoctrinated with by the current institutions since you were a child. A Republic coupled with a monetary system is a recipe for disaster in the long run. So you vote once every two years from a few choices and the "representative" doesn't really need to "represent" you during that time and probably doesn't. The pros and cons for a republic or any political system can be debated forever but the long term problems with this system cannot be ignored.

What's fake? It's all spelled out in the US Constitution for all to see.

The current political and monetary system is restrictive, too easily corrupted and manipulated by monetary-ism itself. Thats what I mean when I say its false or fake. Its becoming irrelevant in the face of the worlds problems. The US Constitution cannot solve the worlds problems. Its also based on a system that cannot survive forever. Its for "The people" but we, as people, are progressing in a way that cause many of the old values to not be useful at a point in the future. In the future much of any country's Bill of Rights or Constitution will be irrelevant, naturally.

And here is where I find YOUR mindset lazy and vile. If you don't want the responsibility to vote or to get involved with politics and the democratic process, then don't. Don't blame others for your failures and your inability to study or make decisions you feel too dumb to make a decision on.

I am involved but I still see it as ineffective for real global change. Especially when the worst of the two "evils" are still for war and the criminalization of drugs, for instance. Does voting make me more "responsible" than those who do not vote locally or nationally? I can't blame some people when they see no vote at all as the strongest statement they can make. Even the people you vote for have agendas, emotions, ulterior motives and in many cases absolutely no real skill for the changes that need to take place. It's a technical process and politicians are not technicians. Why except the system as it is when it is quickly becoming less adequate for the worlds problems. New ideas must emerge that take into account the symbiotic nature of life on earth and politics cannot do that.

I and many others do HAVE informed opinions on many things.

Yes I'm one of them.

Science and hard facts are just that, it does not elicit or purely justifies everything you or anyone does.

Agreed

If "science" and "real data" states that you should kill all comatose patients to save cost things like ethics and "politics" should and must oppose it.

From a monetary cost perspective the data is right but no one would want that outcome. So we don't do it. I don't know if politics can take responsibility for that though.

No it isn't awful for obvious reasons. It is "awful" for those who don't understand it.

Canada's Minister of Science doesn't believe in evolution or even understand what it is. Plus he does acupuncture. The States has similar issues. Thats awful.

It sure isn't perfect but it is better than anything else we have ever had in the past. We have more freedoms, education etc. etc. etc. than in any time in human history

Yes, in the past. We haven't tried ideas like RBEs before so we cant say. Marxism wasn't tried and had no technology to solve the problems of the world that are technical in nature so Marxism is irrelevant and not similar to an RBE in any significant way. We could not have tried a RBE because the tech wasn't there. An RBE-like idea is not perfect, but its better than what we have now.

What you want to do is tear down a system that you don't understand, don't feel smart enough to participate in, are too lazy to walk down to the local political party or start your own little group and replace it with a system where you no longer have to bear any responsibility or make any decisions.

Why assume I don't participate? Or that I don't understand it? Or that I don't want the responsibility to make decisions? You assume too much Pax. At least I can admit that the issues are technical in nature and I personally don't have the technical ability to solve the problems we face. The idea is to lift the human species to its hight potential, to make sure everyone has a relevant education, is safe, and free. Everyone. Those problems are technical in nature and do not require an opinion, once those goals are set.

You must have not read the part where all the TVP and RBE systems monitor everything. It is the only way for your AI systems to work.

No monitoring of citizens is ever talked about to my knowledge. The data that is monitored with sensor networks is available to all and is not related to surveillance of citizens.

TVP succeeds as a fantasy by hand waving away real economic problems and claming unknown technology will somehow fix all these problems. It continues to be a fantasy.

Many of the solutions that are being "waved" are solved by the system itself. They're built in. Any real problems need to be solved or it wont work so hand waving isn't in anyones interest when it comes to real problems. Also, the tech is not "unknown".

 

[Mr_Mix]

I would very much appreciate it if you would fix the tags in this post so as to not make it appear as if your words are mine.

My bad. I wasnt paying attention. Can't edit now

For the record, Prometheus didnt say all that!

 

[Prometheus]

My bad. I wasnt paying attention. Can't edit now

For the record, Prometheus didnt say all that!

No problem. I've asked the mods to take care of it.

 

[Mr_Mix]

Congratulations, you have discovered that America is a republic. Good for you.
Anyways, so since you have problem with "fake democracies" - ie. republics, and you acknowledge that pure democracy is a really dumb idea, you think that the best alternative is to let computers run your entire life for you. You know what? I'll pass. I like running my own life as I see fit.

Computers would not run everything in our lives but would act on broad social issues that concerned the well being of everyone. We do, after all, program the software that makes it all happen. We program AI to do what we tell it to do which is monitor the earth using info from sensors and we sit back and let it do its thing. It takes action based on the data. We could interveen if necessary but the idea is automation of the society. Thats my understanding.
One thing to remember is that humans have control of computers. They dont act by emotion and they cannot asume control. Thats hollywood stuff.

And are you really arguing that ideology has nothing to do with human thinking and the way they run things?

I'm saying we could remove human ideology from running society.

I mean, look at the Crusades - those were motivated by the desire to do good in God's name, not so much out of power and wealth (It would make sense for the European kings to concentrate on their power that was right next to them if you argue otherwise - as indeed, many of the European kings found out the hard way when they discovered that their power back home had been massively weakened by them running around Crusading.)

This is a problem we still suffer from because we let human ideology run our social systems.