Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[Hokulele]

So, Kathy, what is your opinion of Ehrman's suggestion as a response to suffering? Anything?

 

[Ocelot]

Kathy,

Just bringing us back to the topic of Erhmans book, I'm intrigued that Hok mentions that he has a suggested response to the problem of suffering. Since I haven't read the book could you tell me about it please.

 

[ejk]

Kathy, I have been following this thread with great interest. While I have no expectation that this discussion could persuade me that your point of view is correct, I truly would like to understand your perspective. I read the articles you suggested and found them unpersuasive, for the reasons others have given. This has not been a very enlightening experience, as the articles said nothing new to me.

To date, I have been very disappointed not to see a response from you on this simple question:

What is Ehrman's suggestion for a response to suffering in the real world, and what is your opinion of his suggestion?

You say you listened to the book, and want to engage in this discussion; why will you not answer this question?

More and more, I am leaning towards the conclusion that for you there can be no rational discussion about god. I don't mean this as an insult, just an observation. You cannot comprehend the starting point of the people you are talking to, and all of your answer presume the existence not only of a god but of the christian god, Jesus, etc. Your "argument" is based on emotion, specifically your emotional response to your presumed existence of this god.

You can no more have a conversation about whether god exists and has the characteristics you attribute to him [her/it] than I can have a rational discussion about whether I should like my cats. A dog person can argue with me for days about all the problems of cats, and mine in particular. I may even concede their points, but it will not change the fact that I have an emotional response to felines that means I am happier when they share my living space, allergies and shedding notwithstanding. The difference, of course, is that I can try to explain rationally why I enjoy their company, and I can also recognize when I am talking to someone who simply does not react to cats the way I do and will therefore never be persuaded to become a cat person no matter how much I talk about how cute they are batting their little balls around the floor, or curling up and purring, paws in the air.

When you are talking to people for whom reason and critical thinking have led them to conclude that their is not god, or at least that the god you and other christians describe cannot exist, and you engage them by explaining your emotional response to your belief (for me, delusion) that this god exists, you cannot succeed. From our perspective, you are refusing to engage on the terms that were proposed for the discussion.

This is unfortunate, but I think it's time for me to drop this thread and other discussions you start, because there is nothing here for me to learn.

 

[tsig]

I'm fairly confident that what you are describing in this post is the definition of Stokholm Syndrome.

Whip me, beat me, chain me, make me write bad checks. Just hit me sweetly and tell me you love me.

Good thing her friend turned to god or god would have got really nasty.

 

[tsig]

So now this guy has turned back to the Lord does he get his leg back? if not, why not?

He might start dancing.

 

[Elizabeth I]

KK, if we met and I punched you in the face just as hard as I could, then said, "It's not really assault because I was just trying to get your attention," I bet you would be really angry. Maybe even have me arrested.

But when your God does the exact same thing,your only response is, "Thank you, sir, may I have another?"

 

[paximperium]

KK, if we met and I punched you in the face just as hard as I could, then said, "It's not really assault because I was just trying to get your attention," I bet you would be really angry. Maybe even have me arrested.

But when your God does the exact same thing,your only response is, "Thank you, sir, may I have another?"

Nah, KK's god is more akin to a stalker.

He stalks you, secretly loves you, hides from your presence but gets jealous when you see someone else. He then comes by beats the heck out of you for betraying his secret love.

 

[Obsequious]

If that is your god's purpose then I gladly spit in his omnipotent eye.

You can only say this because you don't believe this god exists in the first place.

I think of it like I would any evil dictator. No one in his right mind is going to believe that all of the starving-to-death oppressed peasants really love him. Maybe some of them are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome and feel some affection for him (anything is possible). But he controls the country, he makes the rules, he enforces those rules entirely at his whim, and he can have anyone tortured and killed at any time for no reason. At least a human dictator (or an abusive husband) can be overthrown, imprisoned, or killed.

If you really believed God is out there, that he has these insane rules, that he can see your every thought, feeling, and action, and he will punish you in whatever horrible way he feels like FOREVER if he feels like it, and you have no chance of escape ... wouldn't you do everything in your power to please him? He is EVERYWHERE and knows EVERYTHING and can do ANYTHING. He can make you feel pain that hasn't even been invented yet. He can make you grow entirely new limbs just to cut them off, or put your mind into a thousand bodies just to kill them all in a thousand different ways, or call up a new plane of existence where you have no body and all you experience is a new sensation he just created that's more horrible than pain, and he can do it FOREVER.

I'd be pissing myself in my haste to do anything and everything he commanded. Worship him? Yes. ANYTHING he asked. He wants me to say black is white and evil is holy? Sir, yes, sir! Right away, sir! You are the very definition of kindness, sir! And remember, he knows what you're thinking, so you'd better make yourself believe every word.

Which is yet another reason I'm glad I don't believe in any gods, and an evil one in particular. What must it be like to live in that kind of fear? Hmm....

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You can only say this because you don't believe this god exists in the first place.

I think of it like I would any evil dictator. No one in his right mind is going to believe that all of the starving-to-death oppressed peasants really love him.

Don't know much about North Korea do you?

 

[Moochie]

I can only hope to reach Chuck's level of understanding. He has been a blessing for me and thousands of others to know the truth of scripture. I know God has used him as the founder of all the Calvary Chapels, but to this date I am not sure how many Calvary Chapels there are?

Perhaps you could invite Chuck to come here and debate us. After all, there are more than a few Christians here who don't necessarily follow Chuck's teaching.


M.

 

[Obsequious]

Don't know much about North Korea do you?

I believe someone linked earlier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Do you consider that love, regardless of what the victims may tell themselves and others? I don't.

North Korea was the exact example I was thinking of when I composed my post, but you're right: I don't know much about it. I felt that I didn't know enough about the situation to draw accurate parallels, so I removed specific references. The people may call KJI their "dear leader" and even tell themselves that everything is great, but I do see it as more like Stockholm Syndrome or the effects of pervasive domestic violence. What else can they believe? Their lives are on the line if they don't.

 

[supercorgi]

God has a way of turning us around if we are truly his child that can be reached.
I have gone through enough suffering myself to know God is behind my afflcition but it is also the only way he seemed able to get ahold of me.

If that's the only way this all-powerful god could get your attention, doesn't that imply that he's not all that powerful? Surely an all-powerful being could have come up with something more creative and less painful?

Definitely reads like a case of Stockholm Syndrome...

 

[Moochie]

I very rarely post but this has taken my breath away. The utter cruelty of your god has made me literally sick to my stomach. This is no different than an abusive husband tracking down his wife and beating her until she agrees to come back to him.

If that is your god's purpose then I gladly spit in his omnipotent eye.

I think we might be being too hard on KK. Apparently she's getting all this twaddle from her pastor, Chuck, who seems to be the one stuck in this hellfire and damnation rut, and who appears to be ably assisted in this by KK's husband.


M.

 

[Moochie]

You can only say this because you don't believe this god exists in the first place.

I think of it like I would any evil dictator. No one in his right mind is going to believe that all of the starving-to-death oppressed peasants really love him. Maybe some of them are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome and feel some affection for him (anything is possible). But he controls the country, he makes the rules, he enforces those rules entirely at his whim, and he can have anyone tortured and killed at any time for no reason. At least a human dictator (or an abusive husband) can be overthrown, imprisoned, or killed.

If you really believed God is out there, that he has these insane rules, that he can see your every thought, feeling, and action, and he will punish you in whatever horrible way he feels like FOREVER if he feels like it, and you have no chance of escape ... wouldn't you do everything in your power to please him? He is EVERYWHERE and knows EVERYTHING and can do ANYTHING. He can make you feel pain that hasn't even been invented yet. He can make you grow entirely new limbs just to cut them off, or put your mind into a thousand bodies just to kill them all in a thousand different ways, or call up a new plane of existence where you have no body and all you experience is a new sensation he just created that's more horrible than pain, and he can do it FOREVER.

I'd be pissing myself in my haste to do anything and everything he commanded. Worship him? Yes. ANYTHING he asked. He wants me to say black is white and evil is holy? Sir, yes, sir! Right away, sir! You are the very definition of kindness, sir! And remember, he knows what you're thinking, so you'd better make yourself believe every word.

Which is yet another reason I'm glad I don't believe in any gods, and an evil one in particular. What must it be like to live in that kind of fear? Hmm....

One of our cable channels played the entire miniseries Roots this afternoon. This "God" that KK describes resembles the most evil of slave owners. Reading KK's posts here makes me think there is something seriously amiss in her life to make her want to pay obeisance to such a grotesque caricature of a god.


M.

 

[jenski]

I think we might be being too hard on KK. Apparently she's getting all this twaddle from her pastor, Chuck, who seems to be the one stuck in this hellfire and damnation rut, and who appears to be ably assisted in this by KK's husband.


M.

A frightening thought on all accounts.

 

[Obsequious]

I think of it like I would any evil dictator. No one in his right mind is going to believe that all of the starving-to-death oppressed peasants really love him.

Re-reading this, I might've phrased it a bit better: No outsider in his right mind is going to believe the peasants really love the dictator. Argh, pronouns, self-flagellation.

Though from what little I have heard of him, KJI seems like a malignant narcissist and therefore not of sound mind.

 

[grokinhaze]

to Roadtoad's post on 2nd April 2009, 06:34 PM #230 ...

word

 

[Ladewig]

to Roadtoad's post on 2nd April 2009, 06:34 PM #230 ...

word

Let me link that for you

What you are describing as an "intellectual game," Kathy, is anything but. This is actually pretty serious business, and I find it galling that folks like you ignore the reality that Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics take such things as Eternity far more seriously than you do, yourself. It is precisely....

 

[grokinhaze]

i have a direct question for KK. it off-topic but this seems normal for most of the threads ive read. perhaps this should be another thread.

KK, with all of the other religions, why do you believe that your god is the one true god?

 

[supercorgi]

KK, with all of the other religions, why do you believe that your god is the one true god?

Oh I can answer that for you. Because the Bibble says so and the Bibble is the inspired word of God! (In other words, pure circular reasoning.) All other religions are just Satan's attempt to turn people away from Jesus' light and offer of salvation.