Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[Moochie]

I strongly suspect that Kathy never bought the book let alone read it. She probably picked up her vague complaints about the author and the author's position from some aplogetics website.

It seems more likely to me that KK is "yoked" to her current guru Chuck. Perhaps it is he that this debate should be with, rather than his subjugated devotee who, after all, appears to be parroting his words.


M.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Who here is blaming god for suffering? Most of the people in this thread don't believe in god, and don't believe he's to blame for any of the suffering in the world.

We live in a hostile environment, there's all kinds of bacteria and viruses running around, plus a whole whack of evil people. Add in your basic negligence, and yup. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Someone's kid is getting cancer, somebody up the street is getting shot, and your next door neighbor's house is accidentally set on fire. We all get that. Life is a crapshoot.

Where the disconnect comes in is when someone believes that this omnipotent and benevolent god is watching over everybody on earth, and is able to respond to their prayers, and yet still somehow allows 40,000 children to die every day, while others are hit with earthquakes and tsunamis, plus a whole lot of other suffering through accident, disease, violence, and natural disasters. Is god up there answering prayers and keeping people safe, or does he find joy in watching people suffer so much?

Again, keep in mind that I and many others don't believe there is a god looking over anything, so we don't cast any blame in his direction. I'd like to know how you reconcile a loving omnipotent being with all the suffering you see happening in the world? Is it really so easy to blame every incident of pain or suffering on some long-dead couple who once ate a piece of fruit they were told not to touch?

Well there are still many who believe as I do that God allows the suffering and evil we see in the world. But the answer to why is just not that knowable even for people of faith such as I. I am sorely reminded of how many times I ask God why when I hear of people like a friend of a friend of ours who just had his leg amputated because of bone cancer. My hubby is going to put together a guitar for him to help him have something he can enjoy during even these tough times of suffering. I can't even imagine being in his shoes and I certainly do not like knowing how he is suffering right now.

My hubby told me his friend who is asking him to get this guitar done quickly shared that this young mans testimony is astonishing. He was a Christian but then left the faith and was living the high life in So. Cal when all of a sudden out of the blue he heard from God. God told him now you are going to lose everything and go through some suffering so that you will turn back to me. And this is exactly what has happened. He now has faith again but he is going through some extreme hard times. So see it's true God does seem to use our suffering for a purpose.

 

[kurious_kathy]

It seems more likely to me that KK is "yoked" to her current guru Chuck. Perhaps it is he that this debate should be with, rather than his subjugated devotee who, after all, appears to be parroting his words.


M.

I can only hope to reach Chuck's level of understanding. He has been a blessing for me and thousands of others to know the truth of scripture. I know God has used him as the founder of all the Calvary Chapels, but to this date I am not sure how many Calvary Chapels there are?

 

[paximperium]

Well there are still many who believe as I do that God allows the suffering and evil we see in the world.

Which still means your "god" is evil.

But the answer to why is just not that knowable even for people of faith such as I.

So you accept that your god is evil without question?

Cal when all of a sudden out of the blue he heard from God. God told him now you are going to lose everything and go through some suffering so that you will turn back to me. And this is exactly what has happened. He now has faith again but he is going through some extreme hard times. So see it's true God does seem to use our suffering for a purpose.

If you believe this, then your god is an evil tyrant who causes pain and suffering so that people will believe in him.

Your god is evil KK and your worship of such a deity is truly vile.

 

[supercorgi]

God told him now you are going to lose everything and go through some suffering so that you will turn back to me. And this is exactly what has happened. He now has faith again but he is going through some extreme hard times. So see it's true God does seem to use our suffering for a purpose.

So God has to coerce people to believe in him? That's one powerful god. Wouldn't inspiration be a little more godlike (not to mention nicer) than the enforcer tactics?

 

[IMST]

God told him now you are going to lose everything and go through some suffering so that you will turn back to me. And this is exactly what has happened. He now has faith again but he is going through some extreme hard times. So see it's true God does seem to use our suffering for a purpose.

What disgusting behavior that would be if true. A diety so petty that it would supernaturally interact with the universe to be mean to someone for not believing when it could instead simply demonstrate it's existance to that person. As others have said, if your god existed it would be evil.

 

[Madalch]

I can't even imagine being in his shoes and I certainly do not like knowing how he is suffering right now.

I think you mean, "his shoe".

At any rate, you seem to think that God gave him his cancer to bring him back to Christianity. Surely He could have found a less painful way to get your friend's attention?

 

[Ladewig]

was living the high life in So. Cal when all of a sudden out of the blue he heard from God. God told him now you are going to lose everything and go through some suffering so that you will turn back to me. And this is exactly what has happened. He now has faith again but he is going through some extreme hard times. So see it's true God does seem to use our suffering for a purpose.

And you worship that thing?! Disgusting. How bizarre that you venerate such vengeful, mean-spirited, and petty God. Go sell your craziness somewhere else. No one is buying here.

 

[madurobob]

My hubby told me his friend who is asking him to get this guitar done quickly shared that this young mans testimony is astonishing. He was a Christian but then left the faith and was living the high life in So. Cal when all of a sudden out of the blue he heard from God. God told him now you are going to lose everything and go through some suffering so that you will turn back to me. And this is exactly what has happened. He now has faith again but he is going through some extreme hard times. So see it's true God does seem to use our suffering for a purpose.

I agree. We cannot abide people being happy and free; its just plain wrong. The only way to get them to see the light it so take all their resources, render them all but penniless and homeless, give them cancer and amputate a leg (for starters).

Really, its for their own good.

 

[kurious_kathy]

I agree. We cannot abide people being happy and free; its just plain wrong. The only way to get them to see the light it so take all their resources, render them all but penniless and homeless, give them cancer and amputate a leg (for starters).

Really, its for their own good.

Well it only appears wrong when we cross the line into a immoral lifestyle which is thus the case. God has a way of turning us around if we are truly his child that can be reached.
I have gone through enough suffering myself to know God is behind my afflcition but it is also the only way he seemed able to get ahold of me. I find assurance in the verse that say, "he who has suffered in his body is done with sin."
or here is the complete text in 1 Peter 4:1-3 1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

 

[IMST]

Well it only appears wrong when we cross the line into a immoral lifestyle which is thus the case. God has a way of turning us around if we are truly his child that can be reached. I have gone through enough myself to know God is behind my afflcition but it is also the only way he seemed able to get ahold of me. I find assurance in the verse that say, he who has suffered is done with sin."

I'm fairly confident that what you are describing in this post is the definition of Stokholm Syndrome.

 

[madurobob]

Well it only appears wrong when we cross the line into a immoral lifestyle which is thus the case. God has a way of turning us around if we are truly his child that can be reached. I have gone through enough myself to know God is behind my afflcition but it is also the only way he seemed able to get ahold of me. I find assurance in the verse that say, he who has suffered is done with sin."

What about the devout believers living pure lives who have the same thing happen - lost all they had, stricken with disease, losing body parts?

"He who has suffered is done with sin." Huh. What did Jesus die for again?

 

[joobz]

Well it only appears wrong when we cross the line into a immoral lifestyle which is thus the case.

You know KK, you had previously made a "joke" about wondering if atheists here would threaten your life. Presumably because of their poor morals.

But here, you just said that robbing a person of wealth, health can only appear wrong. In other words, you are saying there are cases where such actions would be acceptable.

Your views of morality are scarily flexible. What would stop you from maiming someone, if you thought god wanted you to?

 

[AmI]

I created evil

Okay...sorry to be throwing this in here so late....but if half of the discussion / argument is good/evil etc....the christians and skeptics should both know.......the bible, (especially if it is to be used by the christian for debate) states: ''I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace and create evil.''
Isaiah 45:7

 

[cwalner]

1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin.

3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

So, let me see if I have this right.

Christianity = done with sin = suffering
Paganism = debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing, and idolatry

Thank you Kathy for making the choice so clear and obvious!

Can somebody direct me to a pagan group in Indianapolis?

 

[Dragonrock]

Let's see, I'm an atheist and I don't drink alcohol or do drugs. I've been married 10 years and never had an affair. I don't worship idols.

I'm confused. When do I start being immoral?

 

[Fiona]

So now this guy has turned back to the Lord does he get his leg back? if not, why not?

 

[X]

I have gone through enough suffering myself to know God is behind my affliction but it is also the only way he seemed able to get ahold of me.

And again.

This is disgusting.

Any religion that makes people think that somehow, bad things are their fault, and that they should feel guilty for sinning and be happy for pain is evil. Flat-out evil.

Kathy: PLEASE stop blaming yourself for your poor health, and saying God is justified in making you suffer. It is not your fault, and it isn't God trying to get your attention. Don't you think an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god would be able to get people's attention without subjecting them to pain?

That anyone deserves pain for merely being human is an evil, abhorrent, and disgusting idea.


I do suggest you listen to what Bart Ehrman has to say. Don't immediately discount it because it isn't what you want to hear, or because he isn't Christian anymore.
By shutting yourself off from points of view other than your own, you close yourself to ideas and knowledge you might otherwise not gain.
I disagree with many people on many things, but I still listen to them. And often, I learn something. It might not change my disagreement, it might be completely irrelevant. But it's still something I would not otherwise have learned.

 

[joobz]

Can somebody direct me to a pagan group in Indianapolis?

Walk down Broadripple.

 

[jenski]

He was a Christian but then left the faith and was living the high life in So. Cal when all of a sudden out of the blue he heard from God. God told him now you are going to lose everything and go through some suffering so that you will turn back to me. And this is exactly what has happened. He now has faith again but he is going through some extreme hard times. So see it's true God does seem to use our suffering for a purpose.

I very rarely post but this has taken my breath away. The utter cruelty of your god has made me literally sick to my stomach. This is no different than an abusive husband tracking down his wife and beating her until she agrees to come back to him.

If that is your god's purpose then I gladly spit in his omnipotent eye.