Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[joobz]

Your claim of God being unjust is purely taken from a fallen mans perspective.

What's hard to understand. Punishing one person for the crime of another is unjust and immoral. Why isn't god moral by this simple metric?

If you were holy I think you would have to see it God's way but for now many are just still blinded to that reality.

How do you know I'm not?

Can you even try to wrap your head around what holiness must mean? To me it must be absolute righteousness which cannot tolerate any evil.

Sounds Like a good definition.
Holding someone accountable for the actions of another is evil. A child of a murderer is not guilty of murder.
To hold them as such is evil.
I do not tolerate this type of evil.
God does.
God isn't holy.

If Jesus is not in us then God can't even look upon us because we are covered with dirty sin which we were born into.

this is just silly.

And I'm not stating a child sinned immediately but they do show bad behaviors at a young age. Do you recall the terrible 2's?

I have a 2 year old right now. Are you telling me that He's evil and deserves eternal punishment because he'll climb on the kitchen table?

He is also capable of the most wonderful acts of kindness. It is actually through him that I see your concept of god as truly vile and sinister. Yes he needs to learn manners, but that's a far cry from claiming he's intrinsiclly wicked.

I can not know the pain a parent must feel who has a child with cancer, but you claim that that child, on some level, deserves it. That's just horrible.

I think we start pretty young with bad behaviors and that is because we are born with this fallen nature do to the cruse. The good news is Jesus made a way to get beyond the curse so we can be reconciled to God. It's Jesus in me now that God sees do you understand?

Yes, I understand. It's because I understand that I reject your premises. Why would god judge my child to be worthy of eternal hell? That's evil and I do not accept it.

Instead of arguing with God why not agree with him and try to accept him on his own terms? Your hate for him in my opinion is what is blinding many of you here on this forum.

You've excused god for behaviors that I wouldn't accept from my son. If my son had hit a kid for something that another had done, I would punish him for being bad.
Yet you claim that god is exempt from this simple logic.

Why the exemption?

 

[Hokulele]

Hmm, ok, thanks. I'm not following very well. Perhaps I am tired.

Personally, I don't understand or accept that perspective either, but the Erhman book mentioned in the OP has a whole chapter on the NT view of suffering as a requirement for redemption. If you haven't read the book, I would still recommend it as it is an interesting overview of the role of suffering as viewed by various biblical authors.

 

[kurious_kathy]

It is basically the whole message of martyrdom. 1 Peter 2:18-24 is probably the passage that describes it most explicitly.

This passage is speaking of turning the other cheek when all come against you. The natural man does not want to do this but we as believers are told we must forgive those who want to hurt or destroy us. It is better to overcome evil by doing good and I must state it does take a bigger person to be able to do this. On my own I am unable but through Christ I can surrender to love even my enemies. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Once we can do this and forgive our enemies God forgives us but if we do not forgive them then God will not forgive us either. In essence what goes around comes around. Are you following me? God is the one who will ultimately pardon and make things right, if not in this life definately in the next.

 

[temporalillusion]

And why do you think you feel this way? Could it be because you haven't been reconciled to him through Christ yet? It truly is the only way anyone becomes a friend of Gods. I was once as you but now I am a new creation through Christ and you can be too if you can just accept Jesus!

How do you know that they haven't?

Many people have tried what you propose and are still left with no other conclusion that God either isn't there, or doesn't respond.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

And why do you think you feel this way? Could it be because you haven't been reconciled to him through Christ yet? It truly is the only way anyone becomes a friend of Gods. I was once as you but now I am a new creation through Christ and you can be too if you can just accept Jesus!

Thanks for the preaching bub, but no thanks.

Having read the bible and seen some of the horrific things done by or for God I realise that I don't WANT a relationshipp with him/her/it.

 

[joobz]

This passage is speaking of turning the other cheek when all come against you. The natural man does not want to do this but we as believers are told we must forgive those who want to hurt or destroy us. It is better to overcome evil by doing good and I must state it does take a bigger person to be able to do this.

Then why does god hold such a grudge over the original sin?

We're supposed to turn the other cheek, but god's allowed to hold everyone accountable for all eternity for something someone else did (unless of course they ask for forgiveness of this thing that someone else did).

On my own I am unable but through Christ I can surrender to love even my enemies. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Once we can do this and forgive our enemies God forgives us but if we do not forgive them then God will not forgive us either. In essence what goes around comes around. Are you following me? God is the one who will ultimately pardon and make things right, if not in this life definately in the next.

In other words, you don't actually forgive people. You simply believe that god will tie up the loose and punish those who are your enemies.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Personally, I don't understand or accept that perspective either, but the Erhman book mentioned in the OP has a whole chapter on the NT view of suffering as a requirement for redemption. If you haven't read the book, I would still recommend it as it is an interesting overview of the role of suffering as viewed by various biblical authors.

Perhaps I can get it through the library (I own his debunking of the Da Vinci Code!).
The key to the 1 Peter passage is the link to Isaiah 53 and its motif of the Suffering Servant, which originally (or only!) referred to Israel and was an attempt to make sense of the continued plight of the Jews. On a metaphysical level it would be interesting to explore the possible effects of God suffering - it only seems right to me that Jesus, the incarnated second person of the trinity, would suffer, as God is responsible for the existence of the universe and its suffering in the first place. Still, it gave God a reasonable flavour of what existence can be like.

 

[Hokulele]

This passage is speaking of turning the other cheek when all come against you. The natural man does not want to do this but we as believers are told we must forgive those who want to hurt or destroy us. It is better to overcome evil by doing good and I must state it does take a bigger person to be able to do this.

But if you are good, shouldn't God protect you from them coming against you? Once again, the root of the question is why does the suffering happen in the first place?

On my own I am unable but through Christ I can surrender to love even my enemies. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Once we can do this and forgive our enemies God forgives us but if we do not forgive them then God will not forgive us either. In essence what goes around comes around. Are you following me? God is the one who will ultimately pardon and make things right, if not in this life definately in the next.

Once again, you are starting to repeat the Old Testament reasoning for suffering. It isn't a punishment for sin, but a natural extension of man's inhumanity to man.

For the third time, what is your opinion on Ehrman's suggestion for a response to suffering? After all, that is the whole point of this thread.

 

[Ladewig]

And I'm not stating a child sinned immediately but they do show bad behaviors at a young age. Do you recall the terrible 2's? I think we start pretty young with bad behaviors and that is because we are born with this fallen nature do to the cruse.

So two-year-olds are capable of making rational choices which will determine whether or not they will be punished for all eternity. You've sunk to a new low Kathy. Your claim is so ridiculous that I suspect it will start a new round of debates as to whether you are a troll or simply spiritually bankrupt. Neither today nor at any time in the entirety of human history has there been a society that requires two-year-olds to be subject to the same laws and punishments as adults.

You have found another yet way to drive people away from Christianity. No one could read your post and be attracted to the religion you describe.

. . . . . . .

I apologize to Hokulele for adding another off topic post. I'll try to stay out of this thread.

 

[kurious_kathy]

What's hard to understand. Punishing one person for the crime of another is unjust and immoral. Why isn't god moral by this simple metric?


How do you know I'm not?


Sounds Like a good definition.
Holding someone accountable for the actions of another is evil. A child of a murderer is not guilty of murder.
To hold them as such is evil.
I do not tolerate this type of evil.
God does.
God isn't holy.


this is just silly.

I have a 2 year old right now. Are you telling me that He's evil and deserves eternal punishment because he'll climb on the kitchen table?

He is also capable of the most wonderful acts of kindness. It is actually through him that I see your concept of god as truly vile and sinister. Yes he needs to learn manners, but that's a far cry from claiming he's intrinsiclly wicked.

I can not know the pain a parent must feel who has a child with cancer, but you claim that that child, on some level, deserves it. That's just horrible.


Yes, I understand. It's because I understand that I reject your premises. Why would god judge my child to be worthy of eternal hell? That's evil and I do not accept it.


You've excused god for behaviors that I wouldn't accept from my son. If my son had hit a kid for something that another had done, I would punish him for being bad.
Yet you claim that god is exempt from this simple logic.

Why the exemption?

I think you are getting the god of this world (i.e.Satan) and God mixed up. Satan has caused all to be deceived and therefore everyone suffers the consequence of death. If you want to be mad at someone make sure you are angry at the right one. Jesus is not evil, Satan is!
Oh but we must remember God uses Satan somehow to test mans hearts and minds. Do not be tricked by the evil one my friend Jesus forgave all of us from that cross. Satan wants to blind you from that. The true miralce is the gift of salvation which only comes through Christ.

I will add I empathize a bit with your frustration why God allows Satan to do evil things to us, but we our taught especially through the book of Job to have faith even in our toughest of trials that God allows suffering to produce something, not sure exactly what but he does do something with it all. My own character has change a lot because of what I have suffered and gone through and God is still refining me through it all. We are all going through some tough times right now and I pray for the whole world and especially the USA to turn back to God so we can be healed. God himself said he will never leave or forsake us but he will not tolerate evil, he can't.

 

[Hokulele]

Perhaps I can get it through the library (I own his debunking of the Da Vinci Code!).

He is a very good writer and a decent researcher. I own his "Lost Gospels" and "Lost Christianities".

The key to the 1 Peter passage is the link to Isaiah 53 and its motif of the Suffering Servant, which originally (or only!) referred to Israel and was an attempt to make sense of the continued plight of the Jews. On a metaphysical level it would be interesting to explore the possible effects of God suffering - it only seems right to me that Jesus, the incarnated second person of the trinity, would suffer, as God is responsible for the existence of the universe and its suffering in the first place. Still, it gave God a reasonable flavour of what existence can be like.

Agreed, it is a link back to Isaiah, but Peter^* took it a step further and suggested that Jesus, who was without sin, couldn't redeem mankind without suffering (which ties into agglerithm's thread).

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

My bolding.


* - Well, the author of the letter. There is some dispute as to whether or not it was written by Peter himself.

 

[kurious_kathy]

But if you are good, shouldn't God protect you from them coming against you? Once again, the root of the question is why does the suffering happen in the first place?




Once again, you are starting to repeat the Old Testament reasoning for suffering. It isn't a punishment for sin, but a natural extension of man's inhumanity to man.

For the third time, what is your opinion on Ehrman's suggestion for a response to suffering? After all, that is the whole point of this thread.

I do not believe there is one certain response. All I can repeatedly state is God does not allow suffering for nothing, maybe he just wants us to cry out to him and receive him after we are broken and contrite? I myself am broken and that heartache is what God has used in my life to turn me around and show me my need for him.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

And I know many think they are happy in this life without God but then I must challenge you to think about what does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his soul?

Self-profit? Is that what it's about? Doesn't seem very Christian.

Not at all, neither did St. Paul.

"And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." - 1 Corinthians, 7:13-14, KJV.

Well done! Bravo!



Kudos.

And why do you think you feel this way? Could it be because you haven't been reconciled to him through Christ yet? It truly is the only way anyone becomes a friend of Gods. I was once as you but now I am a new creation through Christ and you can be too if you can just accept Jesus!

Why have you not accepted Emperor Palpatine? Could it be because you haven't been reconciled to him through Vader yet? It truly is the only way anyone becomes a friend of the Emperor. I was once as you but now I am a new creation through Vader and you can be too if you can just accept Lord Darth Vader!


Now, if you tell me why my argument is not persuasive, I'll tell you why yours isn't.

 

[joobz]

I think you are getting the god of this world (i.e.Satan) and God mixed up.

Nope, I'm only judging your god based upon your description of him. Perhaps show me where my analysis is wrong.

Is it good and moral to hold someone accountable for a crime that someone else committed?

Satan has caused all to be deceived and therefore everyone suffers the consequence of death. If you want to be mad at someone make sure you are angry at the right one. Jesus is not evil, Satan is!
Oh but we must remember God uses Satan somehow to test mans hearts and minds. Do not be tricked by the evil one my friend Jesus forgave all of us from that cross. Satan wants to blind you from that. The true miralce is the gift of salvation which only comes through Christ.

I understand your need to give this knee jerk response. But I must ask again.

Do you think it good to punish someone for a crime that someone else committed? This is what god does with the original sin. That's immoral. plain and simple.

I will add I empathize a bit with your frustration why God allows Satan to do evil things to us, but we our taught especially through the book of Job to have faith even in our toughest of trials that God allows suffering to produce something, not sure exactly what but he does do something with it all.

In the story of Job, God tortures Job to prove to Satan that Job loves god. That's just another example of god's immoral action.


If I burned my child with cigarettes to prove to someone else that he would still loved me afterwards, would you call me good or evil?

My own character has change a lot because of what I have suffered and gone through and God is still refining me through it all. We are all going through some tough times right now and I pray for the whole world and especially the USA to turn back to God so we can be healed. God himself said he will never leave orforsake us but he will not tolerate evil, he can't.

But he created evil. He cannot tolerate that which he created?

 

[Hokulele]

I do not believe there is one certain response.

What is your opinion of Ehrman's response?

 

[joobz]

All I can repeatedly state is God does not allow suffering for nothing, maybe he just wants us to cry out to him and receive him after we are broken and contrite?

So, you claim that a child who died of cancer was merely a means of making that child cry out to god?

Really? that's an acceptable answer to you?

 

[Paulhoff]

KK only has a one sided record with only one track.

She can only repeat the same idea over and over, and can't see another's point of view.

Also she thinks she is telling us something new to think about, when it is only the same BS that we have rejected long ago. She will never understand until maybe one day she opens her eyes.

Paul



A baby has sin, what a sinful idea.

 

[MIKILLINI]

Not at all, neither did St. Paul.

"And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." - 1 Corinthians, 7:13-14, KJV.

Kathy must have skipped this part, which would be odd for a Xtian to skip a bible quote.

 

[MIKILLINI]

So, you claim that a child who died of cancer was merely a means of making that child cry out to god?

Really? that's an acceptable answer to you?

That, or attempting to use the child to make the parents call out to god. Either way is cruel.

 

[Lanzy]

I do not believe there is one certain response. All I can repeatedly state is God does not allow suffering for nothing, maybe he just wants us to cry out to him and receive him after we are broken and contrite? I myself am broken and that heartache is what God has used in my life to turn me around and show me my need for him.

Bolding mine.

Confession through torture? Watch 24 much?