Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[tsig]

It's depressing because he does not get it. Jesus forgives sin but he did not say people wouldn't have consequences form it. Does it really help to focus on suffering? That's what's depressing about it, he has no faith nor do I believe he ever had or he could not have fallen away. I dread his outcome for writing this book and the bad influence he has been for others. He will one day have to be accountable to God as we all will.

I also find it interesting that even though he states his wife is still a Christian he does not state anything about how his falling away from the faith has affected his marriage. Don't you find that odd? I do wonder how that must be going since I know it can destroy families and relationships when people are not equally yolked. Now thanks to Jesus my husband and I are but my turn around was not easy or pleasant. I had to repent a lot! I know what Jesus meant when he said if anyone wants to follow him they must pick up and carry their cross. It is coming to grips with our sins we committed once God shows us that is painful. Even though he forgives us we still feel the affects of what we have done while in this fallen world. Unbelievers are still blinded to their sins while believers are not. One day though I know I have the promise ,because I love God, of a new beginning. Now why wouldn't you want that?

Anyone who would let someone else take the blame for their crimes has no morals.

Your god sounds like a neurotic child playing with it's toys.

 

[Ladewig]

I've got a book challenge for you Kathy. I challenge you to read the Bible. If you do then we can discuss the more heinous atrocities committed by God, the more absurd claims made by God, and the more greivous injustices perpetrated by God.

I'm not joking, there are dozens of specific passages that keep me and many of the other posters from turning to Christianity. If you could explain these to us, then I would consider your brand of religion.

Go read the Bible and don't bother posting until you have finished it.

 

[joobz]

Because of Adam and Eve's sin we all paid the cost.

Which makes God unjust. Not even our judicial system holds the children responsible for the crimes that their parents, grandparents, or great great grandparents commit.

If you had been Eve do you think you would have done better?

Well, we don't know that answer, do we?
Are you saying god is punishing us because we may have committed the same crime? Does this sound like a Just god?

 

[joobz]

It's depressing because he does not get it.

Why does he "not get it"? You were asked to argue against his points, you haven't done that yet.

Jesus forgives sin but he did not say people wouldn't have consequences form it.

So why do children get cancer?

Does it really help to focus on suffering?

That was the debate here. We focus on it, because it's real, observable, and something people in this world TRY very hard to eliminate. You can't reduce suffering if you deny it exists.

That's what's depressing about it, he has no faith nor do I believe he ever had or he could not have fallen away.

Personal insult to the author. Can you not argue against his points?

I dread his outcome for writing this book and the bad influence he has been for others.

Why? You think god would punish him for speaking his heart about the human condition?

He will one day have to be accountable to God as we all will.

which god?

I also find it interesting that even though he states his wife is still a Christian he does not state anything about how his falling away from the faith has affected his marriage.

Read his other interviews. It's clear that it doesn't. And this is rather an insulting line of argument. Please focus on the book and not maritial problems he may/may not have.

Don't you find that odd?

No. But I'm finding this line of reasoning very odd. Do you know what the word projection means?

I do wonder how that must be going since I know it can destroy families and relationships when people are not equally yolked.

Why is that non-denominational christians have the highest divorce rate among christians? Why do athiests have the lowest divorce rate?

Now thanks to Jesus my husband and I are but my turn around was not easy or pleasant. I had to repent a lot! I know what Jesus meant when he said if anyone wants to follow him they must pick up and carry their cross.

Why do you keep drawing comparisons between Ehrman's marriage and your own?

I'm getting a strong sense that you aren't trying to tell us that Ehrman's marriage is bad, but rather trying to convince us (perhaps yourself) that your's is good.

It is coming to grips with our sins we committed once God shows us that is painful. Even though he forgives us we still feel the affects of what we have done while in this fallen world. Unbelievers are still blinded to their sins while believers are not. One day though I know I have the promise ,because I love God, of a new beginning. Now why wouldn't you want that?

Now that you got all that off your chest. Do you care to actually answer the points in Ehrman's book?

 

[Foster Zygote]

And I know many think they are happy in this life without God but then I must challenge you to think about what does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his soul?

I am happy, Kathy. And I'm sure there are Muslims who rationalize that you only think you're happy without the fulfillment of Mohamed's message from God in your life.

Living for pleasure (BC days) only destroyed my life and now I know God had a purpose in helping me get to the end of that self destructive lifestyle.

Living for pleasure is not a bad thing in itself. It all depends on what your pleasures are. You seem to be assuming a false dichotomy based on your only two experiences. You seem to think that the only alternative to your version of Christianity is self destructive hedonism. But what about someone who's pleasures are not selfish and destructive? What about someone who's pleasures include love of family and friends? What about those who take pleasure in helping those in need?

I repented of ungodly living and now I am finding hope and healing.

I am living without belief in your god and I am not in need of healing. I'm not self destructively hedonistic, I love my wife and am doggedly loyal to her, I adore my little son and am dedicated to his happiness and health... In short, life is good.

This is what is working for me and many others out there. I do not think it is very wise for everyone to not validate a Christians testimony to the truth of the saving power of Christ.

Oh I validate it, in the sense that I understand that it has worked for you. But likewise I also validate the experiences of those who offer the same sort of testimony regarding the saving power of many other religions. In fact, people have had life changing experiences like yours that involved things other than religion, such as art and music.

And the problem of original sin has been discussed plenty before, I agree with it. Because of Adam and Eve's sin we all paid the cost. If you had been Eve do you think you would have done better?

The injustice of punishing people for the behavior of their distant ancestors has already been mentioned. But the question you ask raises another problem: If you are implying that any human would have acted in the same manner then you are saying that humans are intrinsically flawed as created by God.

 

[Sun Countess]

And I know many think they are happy in this life without God but then I must challenge you to think about what does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his soul? Living for pleasure (BC days) only destroyed my life and now I know God had a purpose in helping me get to the end of that self destructive lifestyle.

If your lifestyle was truly self-destructive, then I'm glad you're out of it, but do you honestly believe that every non-believer out there is living the same self-destructive life that you were? Some of us truly are happy and living very healthy lives without belief in your god. I'm not tempted by gambling, or cheating, or drugs and alcohol. I'm dedicated to my husband and children, I go to work every day, and do my best to take care of myself, my family, others, and the environment. I also try to enjoy what the world has to offer and to learn a little more every day. It's not an either/or proposition between reckless abandon and utter abandon to false religious beliefs.

I repented of ungodly living and now I am finding hope and healing. This is what is working for me and many others out there. I do not think it is very wise for everyone to not validate a Christians testimony to the truth of the saving power of Christ.

I've heard many a Christian witness to the "saving power of Christ," and in almost every case I see people who are giving up one crutch/addiction for another. As a perfectly healthy and sane person, I don't want to give up the simple pleasures of my life for religious mania and a glassy-eyed stare. It's frightening to look at.

And the problem of original sin has been discussed plenty before, I agree with it. Because of Adam and Eve's sin we all paid the cost. If you had been Eve do you think you would have done better?

Probably not. That's the whole point. Adam and Eve were set up for this particular "sin." Total entrapment on the part of your god, and his way to justify tormenting them and all their ancestors for eternity.

Of course, I know that your god is just a fictional character and that human beings wrote the story. I just don't know why anybody reads past the first few pages of the bible without thinking, "What an ass! No way am I going to worship this clown - he's straight out EVIL."

 

[temporalillusion]

Materialism does not explain or define everything in our world or human nature.

Unsubstantiated claim, just because YOU don't understand how something could come about naturally doesn't mean that it doesn't. You presume that your level of knowledge is the pinnacle of knowledge and wisdom, which is about as prideful as anything I can think of.

People cry out for justice but yet they do not define where that concept comes from. Why is that? Could it truly be we are spiritual beings and those things inside were put there by our creator God? I say yes, absolutely.

You say yes because you want to say yes, not based on any kind of reasoning. There are reasonable alternatives but you reject them because they disagree with what you want to believe. Dishonest.

I repented of ungodly living and now I am finding hope and healing. This is what is working for me and many others out there. I do not think it is very wise for everyone to not validate a Christians Muslim's testimony to the truth of the saving power of Christ Allah.

Fixed for you. Why do you think your argument is at all compelling when I can change a few words and you will view the argument as unconvincing?

And the problem of original sin has been discussed plenty before, I agree with it. Because of Adam and Eve's sin we all paid the cost. If you had been Eve do you think you would have done better?

So no one could have done better than Eve, which means God created the situation such that they had to fail, so God is responsible for it all.

It's depressing because he does not get it. Jesus forgives sin but he did not say people wouldn't have consequences form it.

Dozens of people have asked you, what sin has a starving child committed to deserve such a fate? Why do you avoid answering the question?

 

[tsig]

Why does he "not get it"? You were asked to argue against his points, you haven't done that yet.


So why do children get cancer?


That was the debate here. We focus on it, because it's real, observable, and something people in this world TRY very hard to eliminate. You can't reduce suffering if you deny it exists.


Personal insult to the author. Can you not argue against his points?


Why? You think god would punish him for speaking his heart about the human condition?


which god?


Read his other interviews. It's clear that it doesn't. And this is rather an insulting line of argument. Please focus on the book and not maritial problems he may/may not have.


No. But I'm finding this line of reasoning very odd. Do you know what the word projection means?


Why is that non-denominational christians have the highest divorce rate among christians? Why do athiests have the lowest divorce rate?


Why do you keep drawing comparisons between Ehrman's marriage and your own?

I'm getting a strong sense that you aren't trying to tell us that Ehrman's marriage is bad, but rather trying to convince us (perhaps yourself) that your's is good.




Now that you got all that off your chest. Do you care to actually answer the points in Ehrman's book?

I wonder if her husband had some hand in all that repenting she did.
She mentions her husband and carrying the cross as if they were the same thing.

 

[PrincessIneffabelle]

Back in the day, I used to listen to Chuck Smith, the guy who started the first Calvary Chapel, IIRC.

Isn't he the one that claimed that the rapture would occur in 1981 and Jesus would return in 1988?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Isn't he the one that claimed that the rapture would occur in 1981 and Jesus would return in 1988?

What, you missed it?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Which makes God unjust. Not even our judicial system holds the children responsible for the crimes that their parents, grandparents, or great great grandparents commit.



Well, we don't know that answer, do we?
Are you saying god is punishing us because we may have committed the same crime? Does this sound like a Just god?

Your claim of God being unjust is purely taken from a fallen mans perspective. If you were holy I think you would have to see it God's way but for now many are just still blinded to that reality. Can you even try to wrap your head around what holiness must mean? To me it must be absolute righteousness which cannot tolerate any evil. If Jesus is not in us then God can't even look upon us because we are covered with dirty sin which we were born into. And I'm not stating a child sinned immediately but they do show bad behaviors at a young age. Do you recall the terrible 2's? I think we start pretty young with bad behaviors and that is because we are born with this fallen nature do to the cruse. The good news is Jesus made a way to get beyond the curse so we can be reconciled to God. It's Jesus in me now that God sees do you understand?

Instead of arguing with God why not agree with him and try to accept him on his own terms? Your hate for him in my opinion is what is blinding many of you here on this forum.

 

[boojum]

Since I don't believe your god exists, I don't hate him; except in the abstract way in which I hate other fictional villians. If I did think he existed, I would hate him.
How could I help but hate the entity you just described? Any god that metes out infinite punishment for any finite crime deserves only our contempt.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Your claim of God being unjust is purely taken from a fallen mans perspective. If you were holy I think you would have to see it God's way but for now many are just still blinded to that reality. Can you even try to wrap your head around what holiness must mean? To me it must be absolute righteousness which cannot tolerate any evil. If Jesus is not in us then God can't even look upon us because we are covered with dirty sin which we were born into. And I'm not stating a child sinned immediately but they do show bad behaviors at a young age. Do you recall the terrible 2's? I think we start pretty young with bad behaviors and that is because we are born with this fallen nature do to the cruse. The good news is Jesus made a way to get beyond the curse so we can be reconciled to God. It's Jesus in me now that God sees do you understand?

Instead of arguing with God why not agree with him and try to accept him on his own terms? Your hate for him in my opinion is what is blinding many of you here on this forum.

Can you recommend someone from your church who can carry on an intellectual conversation to continue in your place? Someone who won't just come on here to prosletyze?

 

[temporalillusion]

So I should punish my son when I do something wrong, that's the parenting advice I'm to take home from this?

God is absolute righteousness that can't tolerate evil, yet he created evil and perpetrated evil acts in history.

 

[Hokulele]

It's depressing because he does not get it. Jesus forgives sin but he did not say people wouldn't have consequences form it.

No, that wasn't Jesus, rather Paul and the OT. For Jesus, suffering is required for redemption. You know, that whole cross thing and all?

Now, what do you think about Ehrman's response to suffering?

Does it really help to focus on suffering?

Considering that is the largest cause of cognitive dissonance when dealing with the Christian definition of god, yes, it does really help.

That's what's depressing about it, he has no faith nor do I believe he ever had or he could not have fallen away. I dread his outcome for writing this book and the bad influence he has been for others. He will one day have to be accountable to God as we all will.

No.

I also find it interesting that even though he states his wife is still a Christian he does not state anything about how his falling away from the faith has affected his marriage. Don't you find that odd?

Not at all, neither did St. Paul.

"And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy." - 1 Corinthians, 7:13-14, KJV.

I do wonder how that must be going since I know it can destroy families and relationships when people are not equally yolked.

No, it can destroy families and friendships that do not have a healthy relationship to begin with.

Now thanks to Jesus my husband and I are but my turn around was not easy or pleasant. I had to repent a lot! I know what Jesus meant when he said if anyone wants to follow him they must pick up and carry their cross. It is coming to grips with our sins we committed once God shows us that is painful. Even though he forgives us we still feel the affects of what we have done while in this fallen world. Unbelievers are still blinded to their sins while believers are not. One day though I know I have the promise ,because I love God, of a new beginning. Now why wouldn't you want that?

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with the book or websites under discussion.

Once again, what is your opinion of Erhman's response to suffering?

 

[Mr Clingford]

No, that wasn't Jesus, rather Paul and the OT. For Jesus, suffering is required for redemption. You know, that whole cross thing and all?

Would you unpack this a bit? Where suffering is required? (I might just be having a memory loss!).

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Instead of arguing with God why not agree with him and try to accept him on his own terms? Your hate for him in my opinion is what is blinding many of you here on this forum.

Bolding mine.

Kathy, I do not hate god.

Have you seen Star Wars? You know Darth Vader? Well...you don't think he exists, right? If he did he would be horrible though!

That's how I feel about God.

 

[Hokulele]

Would you unpack this a bit? Where suffering is required? (I might just be having a memory loss!).

It is basically the whole message of martyrdom. 1 Peter 2:18-24 is probably the passage that describes it most explicitly.

 

[Mr Clingford]

It is basically the whole message of martyrdom. 1 Peter 2:18-24 is probably the passage that describes it most explicitly.

Hmm, ok, thanks. I'm not following very well. Perhaps I am tired.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Bolding mine.

Kathy, I do not hate god.

Have you seen Star Wars? You know Darth Vader? Well...you don't think he exists, right? If he did he would be horrible though!

That's how I feel about God.

And why do you think you feel this way? Could it be because you haven't been reconciled to him through Christ yet? It truly is the only way anyone becomes a friend of Gods. I was once as you but now I am a new creation through Christ and you can be too if you can just accept Jesus!