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Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

sorry my bad, :rolleyes:

Interesting shapes there DD!



[qimg]http://www.orbitals.com/orb/orb/2p0.gif[/qimg]

Is that a dipole I see?

From Holoscience

[qimg]http://www.holoscience.com/news/img/The%20atom.jpg[/qimg]



[qimg]http://www.holoscience.com/news/img/Electric%20gravity.jpg[/qimg]

And an image from orbitals.com

[qimg]http://www.orbitals.com/orb/orb/3p0.gif[/qimg]

Mmmm....


Dio you know about QM?

The electron can appear anywhere within a given shell following a probabibility given by the wvaeform.

So do planets hop around in a shell around the sun?


Hmmmm?
 
It was in the link, did you have a squiz at it?

The pioneer anomaly




The effect is very small, but so is the spacecraft compared to the Sun!

And now for the exciting part, what is the motion of the Pioneer probe over a year and what size is the 'effect' as a ratio of the total distance travelled over the year?

And then what is causing the effect can be considered.
 
Better late than never ...

Let me just say two things:

Peratt and Snell, 1995
Abstract The rotation velocity of a simulated plasma galaxy is compared to the rotation curves of Sc type spiral galaxies. Both show lsquoflatrsquo rotation curves with velocities of the order of several hundred kilometers per second, modified by E × B instabilities. Maps of the strength and distribution of galactic magnetic fields and neutral hydrogen regions, as-well-as as predictions by particle-in-cell simulations run in the late 1970s, are compared to Effelsberg observations.

I want to be perfectly unambiguous about this.

There is a simple experimental result which unambiguously rules out Peratt's model. The Eot-Wash test was a measurement of the forces on a test mass in a laboratory. Their test mass---a carefully-shielded metal object---was sensitive to (a) its acceleration towards the Moon, (b) its acceleration towards the Sun, and (c) its acceleration towards the Galactic Center.

The experiments (there were several) showed that the metal mass was accelerated towards the Moon at exactly the same acceleration as the Earth had towards the Moon. That tells you that whatever accelerates the Earth towards the Moon also accelerates the shielded test mass, directly, in exactly the same way. Just what you expect if the entirety of this acceleration is due to gravity.
There's another piece of quite independent research that bolsters this conclusion - LLR (Lunar Laser Ranging, see this APOLLO webpage for an intro).

In a nutshell, the distance between various (up to four) retroreflector arrays on the Moon's surface and the center of "the [APOLLO] telescope mount, where the azimuth axis and elevation axis intersect each other" is measured to mm precision. Once various known systematic effects are taken into consideration*, the observations can be compared with models of the Moon's orbit, taking into account all sorts of solar system body masses ... and based on GR.

One result of this work is to constrain any non-gravitational effect on the orbit of the Moon ... IOW, of pertinence to this part of this thread, any EM effects.

The net? No such forces detected (see the APOLLO website for links to publications).

The experiment showed that the metal mass was accelerated towards the Sun at exactly the same acceleration as the Earth had towards the Sun. That tells you that whatever accelerates the Earth towards the Sun also accelerates the shielded test mass, directly, in exactly the same way. Just what you expect if the entirety of this acceleration is due to gravity.

The experiment showed that the metal mass was accelerated towards the Galactic Center at exactly the same acceleration as the Earth had towards the Galactic Center. That tells you that whatever accelerates the Earth towards the Galactic Center also accelerates the shielded test mass, directly, in exactly the same way. Just what you expect if the entirety of this acceleration is due to gravity---and explicitly the opposite of what you expect if this acceleration is due to electromagnetism[/I]. If the Earth/Sun system were, as Peratt alleges, getting Lorentz-force-law'ed towards the Galactic center, this force would not act directly on Eot-Wash's shielded, neutral test mass---it would only act on the test mass via the Earth and the lab dragging the mass along.

The fact that Eot-Wash observed zero non-gravitational acceleration towards the Galactic center tells us that Peratt's hypothesis is wrong. Sorry. No way around it.

http://www.npl.washington.edu/eotwash/experiments/equivalencePrinciple/epDone.html

As with LLR, wrt the Moon, there are also independent research results which constrain the size of any EM effects on the motion of the solar system barycentre wrt SgrA* (or other 'fixed' points in the galaxy).

One that I remember, but have not been able to track down, is the use of ring lasers to measure acceleration; IIRC, there was one result that is similar to the Eot-Wash one; namely, that the solar system barycentre motion around the galaxy centre of mass is just that predicted from GR (or Newton; the differences are not measurable, for this test).

The other is a little indirect ... but only because the researchers didn't explicitly test for modelled EM effects: Constraints on the Acceleration of the Solar System from High-Precision Timing (link is to the ADS abstract).

In a nutshell, this test involves exquisitely precise timing of many pulsars, and analysis of that data - together with the best solar system ephemeris available - to see if there are any unmodelled accelerations. Should there be any, they could be the signature of distant planets (way beyond Neptune), CDM, MOND, ... or EM effects. Now a null result doesn't rule out any of these absolutely; all it does it put constraints on the size of any such signature, and - by running the calculations 'backward' - so on the existence of various distant planets, CDM mass distributions, MOND locally, ... and EM effects.

As with the Eot-Wash result, the most obvious implication for the Snell-Peratt paper is that the force/acceleration mechanisms proposed can be ruled out. How strong these constraints are - IOW how many orders of magnitude Snell-Peratt are out - depends on analyses an EU/PC proponent would have to perform .... another calculation for you, Z?

* it is fascinating to read what these are, and how the APOLLO team went about robustly estimating them!
 
Better late than never ...


There's another piece of quite independent research that bolsters this conclusion - LLR (Lunar Laser Ranging, see this APOLLO webpage for an intro).

In a nutshell, the distance between various (up to four) retroreflector arrays on the Moon's surface and the center of "the [APOLLO] telescope mount, where the azimuth axis and elevation axis intersect each other" is measured to mm precision. Once various known systematic effects are taken into consideration*, the observations can be compared with models of the Moon's orbit, taking into account all sorts of solar system body masses ... and based on GR.

One result of this work is to constrain any non-gravitational effect on the orbit of the Moon ... IOW, of pertinence to this part of this thread, any EM effects.

The net? No such forces detected (see the APOLLO website for links to publications).


As with LLR, wrt the Moon, there are also independent research results which constrain the size of any EM effects on the motion of the solar system barycentre wrt SgrA* (or other 'fixed' points in the galaxy).

One that I remember, but have not been able to track down, is the use of ring lasers to measure acceleration; IIRC, there was one result that is similar to the Eot-Wash one; namely, that the solar system barycentre motion around the galaxy centre of mass is just that predicted from GR (or Newton; the differences are not measurable, for this test).

The other is a little indirect ... but only because the researchers didn't explicitly test for modelled EM effects: Constraints on the Acceleration of the Solar System from High-Precision Timing (link is to the ADS abstract).

In a nutshell, this test involves exquisitely precise timing of many pulsars, and analysis of that data - together with the best solar system ephemeris available - to see if there are any unmodelled accelerations. Should there be any, they could be the signature of distant planets (way beyond Neptune), CDM, MOND, ... or EM effects. Now a null result doesn't rule out any of these absolutely; all it does it put constraints on the size of any such signature, and - by running the calculations 'backward' - so on the existence of various distant planets, CDM mass distributions, MOND locally, ... and EM effects.

As with the Eot-Wash result, the most obvious implication for the Snell-Peratt paper is that the force/acceleration mechanisms proposed can be ruled out. How strong these constraints are - IOW how many orders of magnitude Snell-Peratt are out - depends on analyses an EU/PC proponent would have to perform .... another calculation for you, Z?

* it is fascinating to read what these are, and how the APOLLO team went about robustly estimating them!

Perhaps I'm missing something. These tests are measuring possible minute EM forces. Is it not true that that the forces required for the kind of cosmological effects promulgated by the believers in EU/PC must much greater?
 
Perhaps I'm missing something. These tests are measuring possible minute EM forces. Is it not true that that the forces required for the kind of cosmological effects promulgated by the believers in EU/PC must much greater?

Stop the presses; to first order, I was incorrect about the interpretation of this particular Eot-Wash work. Their main, ultrasensitive result may not be sensitive to the particular weird force posited by PC, which would act through the center of mass of their pendulum, but only to actual modified gravities which act on the pendulum arms directly.
 
Slightly off topic but...
Bwahahahahaha! No, it is not.

I see we can now add quantum mechanics to the list of things you've demonstrated that you don't understand. That's not a dipole. It's an electron orbital, so both lobes are negatively charged. The color difference indicates a change in sign of the complex phase of the wave function, not its charge. But that is clearly too difficult an idea for you to understand. If you actually calculate the expectation value for the dipole moment for that wave function, you will (not surprisingly) find that it is zero.

Quantum mechanics, Bwahahahahaha! :rolleyes:

Z, you don't get it do you?

From the website http://www.orbitals.com/orb/index.html

Atomic Orbitals

Electron orbitals are the probability distribution of an electron in a atom or molecule.

probability distribution?
We can never know where the electron is in it's ORBIT around the nucleus?

An electron would have a certain probability of being based on particular energy states?
The more energy the less certain we are, until enough energy has been added the probability of the electron being anywhere in ORBIT around the atom becomes certain, it pisses off and becomes a free electron, a plasma! ( when talking about more than a single atom)
In a higher energy state, the shapes become lobes and rings?
Hell may even become pixy snot or elf dandruff?

The blue color indicates a positive phase, while the orange color indicates a negative phase, with the phase taken as defined by Condon and Shortley. The colors become important when molecular orbitals are computed.
And when the electrons of adjacent atoms are all in phase with each other?

DD wrote:
Small point of clarification!

You do know that electron do not orbit the nucelus?

It is more that they exist in a quantum state of probability in the arae of the nucleus.

Orbital is an old term which has a new meaning.

And when those quantum state's of probabilities all oscillate together in harmonic resonance?

Uncle Wal's maybe on the money I think!

Electric%20gravity.jpg
 
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Quantum mechanics, Bwahahahahaha! :rolleyes:

Z, you don't get it do you?

I'm not the one who can't understand the difference between phase and charge. I'm not the one who thinks that a p-state orbital has an electric dipole moment. If you want to, I can even go through the math and calculate the electric dipole moment of that orbital and demonstrate that it's zero. But that's probably of no use to you: you wouldn't understand the math anyways, and hey, you've already got your pretty pictures, no need to actually understand where they came from or what they mean.
 
davefoc wrote over in the thread Quantum entanglement?

It seems like a lot of modern physics is inaccessible to those unwilling or unable to plow through the math. But this seems like a simple enough issue that it should be understandable by the less mathematically capable amongst us.

Amen!

When faced with a fundamental challenge to the current theory, a lot of followers of said theory demand the proponent of the other theory to do the math and show us the calculation! :mad:

But didn't we invent computers to do all the hard work involved in the math?

Or do you math nuts do the stereotypical mad scientists thing?

And this one sounds familiar when explaining the Big Bang
5994_chemistry_cartoon.gif


Just don't divide by Zero!!!
 
I'm not the one who can't understand the difference between phase and charge. I'm not the one who thinks that a p-state orbital has an electric dipole moment. If you want to, I can even go through the math and calculate the electric dipole moment of that orbital and demonstrate that it's zero. But that's probably of no use to you: you wouldn't understand the math anyways, and hey, you've already got your pretty pictures, no need to actually understand where they came from or what they mean.

If maths blows the wind thru your hair, go ahead! You and I are not the only one reading this thread.

I am not a mathematician by a long shot! And maths is no substitute for common sense!

The Electron cloud

Experimental evidence suggests that the probability density is not just a theoretical model for the uncertainty in the location of the electron, but rather that it reflects the actual state of the electron. This carries an enormous philosophical implication, indicating that point-like particles do not actually exist, and that the universe's evolution may be fundamentally uncertain. The fundamental source of quantum uncertainty is an unsolved problem in physics.

Therefore a Gravitational singularity does not exists?

This is just so funny
The simplest Big Bang cosmological model of the universe contains a causal singularity at the start of time (t=0), where all timelike geodesics have no extensions into the past. Extrapolating backward to this hypothetical time 0 results in a universe of size 0 in all spatial dimensions, infinite density, infinite temperature, and infinite space-time curvature.
Therefore it never existed, perfect! Something that never was can never be!!!

See THE BIG BANG-what-caused-the-big-bang

So my math's fiends, do you maths starting from the start, using the above variables, should be easy!

Or maybe the maths to these problems might blow more wind thru your hair!

* Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems
* 0-dimensional singularity: magnetic monopole
* 1-dimensional singularity: cosmic string
* 2-dimensional singularity: domain wall

And why QM and GR/SR will never be able to agree! So which one is wrong?
 
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I am not a mathematician by a long shot! And maths is no substitute for common sense!

Perhaps you should put that on a T-shirt? You could sell it and fund PC/EU research. That or write a book ‘Big Bang Cures Then Don’t Want You to Know About.’ and have Kevin Trudue make an infomercial. Oh, but that’s right without math how are you ever going to tally up and distribute all the money. Don’t worry, Kevin can take care of that for you, he’s got experience with that kind of common sense.
 
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Weird logic from Soll88 yet again

The MAJOR problem here is we have no idea what gravity IS?
That is right.
We have no idea what gravity IS!

But...
We have no idea what electromagentism IS!
We have no idea what the weak force IS!
We have no idea what the stron force IS!

Therefore all science is wrong!

Thank you for clearing that up Sol88 :rolleyes: !
 
The paper you linked to HERE by L. Neslusan in post 2166 his paper? or another paper by Anthony L. Peraat:?
Where in the paper by "Anthony L. Peraat" does he calculate the ration between the EM force on a charged star by the galctic magntic field

Is the value that he gets about 10-22 (EM force/G force) or something else?
 
RC wrote

WTF!!!

Please re read your post :rolleyes:
WTF!!! What post :rolleyes: ?

The fact that the EM forces on a charged star moving in a galactic magnetic field are 10-22 less than the gravitational force is not "irrefutable proof against Plasma cosmology".
This is because "plasma cosmology" does not exist. Instead there is a thing that that fools people into thinking it is science but is really a collection of mutually inconsistent and mostly wrong theories.

The fact that the EM forces on a charged star moving in a galactic magnetic field are 10-22 less than the gravitational force is irrefutable proof against Perrat's model of galaxy formation because he states in his 1995 paper (Rotation velocity and neutral hydrogen distribution dependency on magnetic field strength in spiral galaxies) that his computer simulation explains the velocity curve, i.e. the motion of plasma (ans so stars) in the galaxy.
 
And standard cosmology does????

No body I repeate NO one knows what gravity is, there for YOUR model will always be some ad hoced made up pixy snot variables to bang that square peg into that round hole.

And you, like many others, are BLIND to see that! you base your whole cosmology on some 300 odd year old mathematical model.

That's your problem, it's so passe!
Standard cosmology does make testable, falsifiable predictions (e.g. the CMB existence, temperature, thermal spectrum and power spectrum)

But this thread is about "plasma cosmology" so perhaps you will like to list the testable, falsifiable predictions of "plasma cosmology"?

What is this "300 odd year old mathematical model" that Standard cosmology is based on?
 
No body I repeate NO one knows what gravity is, there for YOUR model will always be some ad hoced made up pixy snot variables to bang that square peg into that round hole.
Hello all PC proponents out there. Sol88 has just disproved PC and BBT!
His really, really simple, logic is above for BBT and repeated here for PC:

No body I repeate NO one knows what electromagnetics is , there for YOUR model will always be some ad hoced made up pixy snot variables to bang that square peg into that round hole.
 
Brilliant! Sol88 wants to do away with the last 104 years of scientific progress.
Actually he wants to throw away all scientific progress in the last 300 years (and demonstrate his ignorance)!

...snip...
And you, like many others, are BLIND to see that! you base your whole cosmology on some 300 odd year old mathematical model.
...snip...
 

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