Statistics about Jesus fulfilling prophecy

[CurtC]

Shoot, most aren't even prophecies about the stupid messiah. They are statements chosen from the OT because they seem to apply to Jesus (even when they don't).

Thank you, I was going to add the same thing.

Hmmm, that's interesting. If this passage refers to Jesus, then it suggests there was a time that he did not know enough to refuse evil and choose good. Seriously? Pretty strange for a messiah, don't you think? And is there really any indication that Jesus at curds and honey?

I've been listening to an excellent course from Stanford, called "Historical Jesus." It's put out as a free podcast, available here: http://itunes.stanford.edu/

Concerning the paragraph of yours I quoted here, consider that a messiah to old Israelites was a human messenger, not a god. The Gospel of Mark implies that Jesus was appointed (by God) as the messiah after his death, not before. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke show that Jesus was made the messiah when he was baptized. But all three of these gospels never mention that Jesus was actually divine.

The concept of Jesus's divinity doesn't appear except in the Gospel of John, which in many ways is the odd man out of the four gospels.

 

[kurious_kathy]

How many of those prophecies were fulfilled in such a way that the person who wrote it down could not possibly have been there to witness it?

All the prophetic words through time were given to God's Prophets and scripture validates scripture. It's easy to follow these prophecies through the Bible and see that Jesus fulllfilled all of them except for the very next one that could happen at any time about his second coming.
It's really important for all to know when Jesus frist came to the earth he came to save the lost, but when he returns he is coming back to rukle and reign and all who have denied him will stand judgement. I just want to make a plea to many of you to seek the Lord while he may still be found!

 

[truethat]

Ha I knew this information would eventually come in handy! It is from Isaiah.

OLD TESTAMENT PROPHESY not New


http://home.teleport.com/~salad/4god/isaiah53.htm

 

[kurious_kathy]

Thank you, I was going to add the same thing.




I've been listening to an excellent course from Stanford, called "Historical Jesus." It's put out as a free podcast, available here: http://itunes.stanford.edu/

Concerning the paragraph of yours I quoted here, consider that a messiah to old Israelites was a human messenger, not a god. The Gospel of Mark implies that Jesus was appointed (by God) as the messiah after his death, not before. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke show that Jesus was made the messiah when he was baptized. But all three of these gospels never mention that Jesus was actually divine.

The concept of Jesus's divinity doesn't appear except in the Gospel of John, which in many ways is the odd man out of the four gospels.

Jesus's divinity is clear in scripture. In the gospels each writer portrays him different which is kind of cool but his divinity is obvious. All authority on earth and in heaven was given to him. Not to mention all the miracles he did to prove he is who he says he is, God's only Son, our Messiah.

P.S. My favorite gospel is Matthew as Jesus is protrayed as King.

 

[kurious_kathy]

kurious_kathy,

I have two questions:

1. If the father, son and holy spirit are one god, how can the father be aware of something and the son not? One god, remember?

2. If Jesus did not know the day or hour, how could he tell his disciples: "Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:28)?

As far as I can see Jesus only does what the Father says at the moment he wants it done so if it wasn't yet time for his return then he would have to wait. At least this makes sense to me.
And who's to say but God when the time is right for his return? Everytime I hear someone trying to predict the date I do not listen to them as it is clear no one is to know that but God the Father. And whose to say after the resurection seems like Jesus probably does know now as he was only purposely limiting himself before his death.

 

[Robert Oz]

kurious_kathy,

I have two questions:

1. If the father, son and holy spirit are one god, how can the father be aware of something and the son not? One god, remember?

2. If Jesus did not know the day or hour, how could he tell his disciples: "Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:28)?

As far as I can see Jesus only does what the Father says at the moment he wants it done so if it wasn't yet time for his return then he would have to wait. At least this makes sense to me.
And who's to say but God when the time is right for his return? Everytime I hear someone trying to predict the date I do not listen to them as it is clear no one is to know that but God the Father. And whose to say after the resurection seems like Jesus probably does know now as he was only purposely limiting himself before his death.

You haven't answered my questions:

1. If the son (Jesus) and the father (Jesus' dad) are one in the same god, how can one know something that the other doesn't. What would be the purpose of limiting himself before his death? He could have easily said, "I know the time of my return, but for <insert reason here> I can't tell you when it is", but instead he said, "I don't know". Assuming Jesus doesn't lie, how can he not know something that the father knows, since they are the same god?

2. If he didn't know, why did he say "Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:28)? Matthew's gospel reveals that Jesus both knew and didn't know. How is this possible?

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Long ago, on another forum, a Jewish member put up a list of Messianic prophecy which Jesus didn't fulfill. One of the ones I remember was universal adherance to all 613 laws in the Torah (at least for Jews).

If I can find a similar list I'll post it here.

 

[yy2bggggs]

All the prophetic words through time were given to God's Prophets and scripture validates scripture.

Empathy is a critically important skill to master should one ever want to have hope of leading a moral life. I would ask you, kurious_kathy, to apply an intellectual form of empathy.

If you're going to tell me something, give me a reason to believe that it's actually true as opposed to just something that only a person who believed the thing would say in the first place. In other words, ask yourself, before you say something--why should I believe what I have no good reason to believe?

It's easy to follow these prophecies through the Bible and see that Jesus fulllfilled all of them

...except for the fact that it tears up the first wall. Let's take the virgin birth for example. Jesus was born of a virgin--ah, fulfillment of prophecy... wonderful, gorgeous. One little question. How did the authors of Matthew and Luke know he was born of a virgin? And if they would write something they couldn't possibly know, given that the point of writing about the fulfilled prophecies was to show how Jesus fulfilled them, then... uhm... aren't we simply playing a rigged game?

but when he returns he is coming back to rukle and reign and all who have denied him will stand judgement.

I asked you this before. Why?

Why do the things that your god requires suspiciously have more to do with belief than reasonable belief? If there is a god, and he's the creator of the universe--the same who makes octillion ton bombs scattered at unfathomable distances in space, I find it extremely hard to believe that he would be so petty with human frailties as to judge someone based on whether or not that person believed things, even about him, without good reason to believe it.

Your god is just too small to have made this universe. Show me evidence for a bigger god.

 

[TheAnachronism]

My goodness, I guess I really am just completely lost when it comes to the Bible. You see, when my friend mentioned prophecies in the Old Testament, I pictured a long, numbered list of what the Messiah was to fulfill. I should have known that would have been far too simple for the Bible!

kurious_kathy, I don't quite understand what you're doing in this thread, unless it is attempting to prey on my self-confessed inadequate understanding of Biblical scripture. In previous posts, I stated somewhat specifically what I was asking for, and your reply to me in no way seems like an attempt to help me in that regard.

I'm not pretending to be King of the Fora, but I don't like to have to wade through large chunks of text only to realize at the end that they have nothing to do with the question at hand. If you'd like to make me aware of what Jesus or God will do to me on account of my disbelief, feel free to PM me instead.

 

[HansMustermann]

Well, Kathy is... Kathy. She has yet to exhibit more complex thought patterns than "the gospel is true because the gospel says so," with at most one extra step inserted into that loop. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea that it has to be _OT_ predictions went right over her her head.

Verily I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for Kathy to actually make sense

 

[Sherman Bay]

... a statistic he read which showed the extremely low probability of anyone fulfilling the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, which he felt lent credence to the fact that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

Such a mathematical statement has me puzzled.

I can compute the probability of a coin coming up heads or tails, or the Jack of Diamonds being found at the top of a randomly shuffled deck of cards, but how can I figure out the odds of a preposterous prophecy coming true?

Besides, Christians believe it came true and Jews don't. What are the odds of that?

If I write, in Chapter 1 of a book, that a red ball will appear in the sky tomorrow, and tomorrow I write in Chapter 2 that a red ball appeared in the sky exactly as predicted, what does that prove? That the red ball is a divine presence? That I am able to predict the future? Would you "believe" in a possibly nonexistant red ball as having supernatural powers just because of my book?

 

[Ladewig]

And how is it so many can deny the truth of scripture? I believe it is absolute truth and we can take God at his word. It is still my understanding that no one has ever disproven the truth of scripture even though many try to argue about it constantly.

I am fascinated by the bizarreness of your claim. Did you even read the Bible passage you quoted?! I am not being facetious here, I really want to know if you read it. It says "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." How can you not see this line as evidence that scripture is incorrect?

 

[CurtC]

Jesus's divinity is clear in scripture. In the gospels each writer portrays him different which is kind of cool but his divinity is obvious.

Perhaps you could point out the specific places where Jesus's divinity is clear in Matthew, Mark, or Luke - where anyone, Jesus, the writer, the people in the stories, seemed to think Jesus was actually divine. It would help out all those scholars who have been looking for years and years and not found any.

Not to mention all the miracles he did to prove he is who he says he is, God's only Son, our Messiah.

Miracles and being a messiah are not the same as being divine.

P.S. My favorite gospel is Matthew as Jesus is protrayed as King.

What were Jesus's last words according to the writer of Matthew? Q.E.D.

Let's take the virgin birth for example. Jesus was born of a virgin--ah, fulfillment of prophecy...

Except that it wasn't a prophesy.

 

[charles brough]

The gospel writers, and Jesus himself, were very well aware of the prophesies. Fudging the stories to match up with them was a trivial task.

The gospels even admit that Jesus did specific things "in fulfilment of prophesy", that is, he did them specifically because he knew of the prophesy. If I know the prophesy says the messiah will drive a red Ford, and I want to be considered the messiah... obviously I'm going to buy a red Ford. Hardly proves anything though.

Yes, this trick was normal practice to religion-writers in those times. In current Biblical research, it is called "intertextualism."

 

[charles brough]

I was discussing religion with a Christian friend and coworker yesterday, and he brought up Jesus. This is usually problematic for me, because while I may be able to argue against the existence of God, I have little knowledge about the New Testament and the life of Jesus of Nazareth, and I told him that.

Any help would be appreciated.

I suggest an interesting book "The Passover Plot" by Dr. Shoenfield. It gives a realistic portrail of what happened and is backed by extensive research. In it, Jesus is portrayed as an anti-Rome militant who tore up The Temple inside in expectation it would lead to more and extensive rioting and an uprising against Rome. It was premature and failed, he and his ARMED followers were surrounded and captured. He was executed. Two of his followers led Greeks into a version of him as coming back to save them from Rome. By that time, the Roman Empire was weakening, people were feeling the declining living standards, and longed for The End Times and "his return"

 

[HansMustermann]

I'd also like to point out that virgin birth was actually so common at various times as to warrant inventing succubi and incubi to explain it.

One of the possible tricks to getting one is anal sex. There is a couple of percent probability of getting prengnant via what's called a "splash conception."

It's also been relatively popular in all societies and ages which made a huge fuss about staying (technically) a virgin. To the extent that at least one IIRC renaissance author wrote that the unmarried women of his age were saints from the front and martyrs from the back.

 

[HansMustermann]

I suggest an interesting book "The Passover Plot" by Dr. Shoenfield. It gives a realistic portrail of what happened and is backed by extensive research. In it, Jesus is portrayed as an anti-Rome militant who tore up The Temple inside in expectation it would lead to more and extensive rioting and an uprising against Rome. It was premature and failed, he and his ARMED followers were surrounded and captured. He was executed. Two of his followers led Greeks into a version of him as coming back to save them from Rome. By that time, the Roman Empire was weakening, people were feeling the declining living standards, and longed for The End Times and "his return"

Well, while it's a possibility, and the jews certainly were gradually getting unruly, I find that possibility somewhat improbable. And here's my reasoning why.

Pilatus had the unenviable position of being a governor of a very unruly province, but of not actually having an army to keep them in check. As one of the equites, he didn't even have the right to command a legion. The nearest legion was that of the legate of Syria. Pilatus seems to have had just a couple of locally-recruited auxilia cohorts as police, and that was it.

(Especially bear in mind the "locally recruited" part . Not necessarily soldiers you'd want to trust with your life, if the locals revolted.)

Worse yet, for the first six years of his office, the office of legate of Syria was vacant. So Pilatus basically was on his own, in case of a rebellion.

What I'm getting at is that several times he had to bend over backwards to please the locals and prevent a rebellion.

E.g., almost as soon as he got there, he ran into the first problem. He couldn't use the emperor's busts with his cohorts (by then one of the standard symbols of any roman army, to remind them who they serve), because the local were rabid iconoclasts and threatened with open rebellion if he showed the emperor's bust anywhere.

We have three surviving reports about that screw-up.

Next, Pilatus put up gilded shields, dedicated to Tiberius, the current emperor at the time. This time he refrained from actually showing the emperor's picture on them, or any symbolism, save for a small inscription dedicating them to the emperor. He gets another almost rebellion, and the Jewish leaders even wrote to Tiberius personally about it. Tiberius ordered Pilatus to take them down.

Etc.

The point is that we _know_ of a bunch of such incidents. Both from Pilatus, who never made a secret of the troubles he has as a governor without an army, and from other sources.

Some group actually taking up arms in Jerusalem? I believe that ought to heve been documented too, if that happened.

Now of course, we don't have complete records, so it's possible for it to have slipped through the cracks. But it's somewhat strange that more minor clashes were recorded, but an actual armed attack in the middle of Jerusalem would be forgotten.

 

[yy2bggggs]

Except that it wasn't a prophesy.

Well, yeah, but that argument's insufficient to address the view from the "in crowd". It wasn't some x such that someone claiming to be a prophet said, I hereby prophecy x. The x referred to something completely different from the prophecy--even may have been translated differently. As such, we wouldn't call it a prophecy.

But in the "in crowd", that's not entirely convincing. There was, as I understand it at the time, a culture of beliefs about a messiah. Within the context of this culture, shared information about such x's were signs of the coming messiah, and the fact that x referred to something else, or could even be a "mistranslation", is irrelevant, as it was believed that the scriptures (not to be confused with what we know of as the "old testament") were true on multiple levels in multiple ways. (I'd like to add that modern believers aren't really so different).

So perchance this is relevant to TheAnachronism, but I'd be willing to bet that kurious_kathy isn't impressed.

 

[This Guy]

All the prophetic words through time were given to God's Prophets and scripture validates scripture. It's easy to follow these prophecies through the Bible and see that Jesus fulllfilled all of them except for the very next one that could happen at any time about his second coming.

It's interesting that you (and others) are impressed with the Christian made up prophecies of the old testament, and apparently not the least bit disturbed by the fact that Jesus failed to make true prophetic statements himself.

Let's check a few of his "Prophecies". All quotes from the King James Version:

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This is a tricky one. From a Jewish perspective, this is likely a valid prophecy. However todays Christians (unlike Peter and John (the brother of Jesus) who believed in following the law) don't consider the "old laws" to be binding any more. That of course comes from Paul, not Jesus. So, if you do not keep the Sabbath (Saturday from sunset Friday to Sunset Saturday) Holy, eat no pork, and follow all the other Mosaic laws, you are not following Jesus' instructions. You are following the words of a man who went from being an almost rabid Christian hater to a fanatical Christian who claimed he was visited by Jesus (though he couldn't keep his story straight. Either the people with him heard and did not see, or saw and did not hear the Lord) and from this "visit" he "revealed" that Jesus was just kidding when he said that about the law. It's all cool now, don't bother with all that Kosher stuff, or Sabbath, or circumcision, and all that other crap.

[Acts 9
1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Acts 22
1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.]

Of course this was written by the writer of the Gospel Luke. Perhaps he couldn't keep the story straight?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This is a good one. He couldn't even get the time he would spend in the tomb right! He was buried around sunset Friday, and reportedly was raised up around sun rise Sunday. That's a day and a half any way you cut it. Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night. Rose Sunday morning. Maybe he got in a hurry, and decided to cut the time short?

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mentioned above also. He's very very late it seems, or there are some pretty dang old folks wondering around somewhere.

Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mark 13:2
And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luke 21:6
As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Most Christians consider this a fulfilled prophecy. However.

The Western Wall (Hebrew: הכותל המערבי‎, translit.: HaKotel HaMa'aravi), sometimes referred to as the Wailing Wall or simply the Kotel (lit. Wall; Ashkenazic pronunciation: Kosel), and as al-Buraq Wall by Muslims,[1] is an important Jewish religious site located in the Old City of Jerusalem. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, being constructed around 19 BCE by Herod the Great.

Many Christians claim that the Romans completely destroyed the Temple during the Jewish revolt of around 70 AD/CE. But you can go today and "wail" on the western wall of the same Temple that stood when Jesus made his prediction. Either he was wrong, or those that claim fulfillment of this prophesy are wrong.

 

[This Guy]

I suggest an interesting book "The Passover Plot" by Dr. Shoenfield. It gives a realistic portrail of what happened and is backed by extensive research. In it, Jesus is portrayed as an anti-Rome militant who tore up The Temple inside in expectation it would lead to more and extensive rioting and an uprising against Rome. It was premature and failed, he and his ARMED followers were surrounded and captured. He was executed. Two of his followers led Greeks into a version of him as coming back to save them from Rome. By that time, the Roman Empire was weakening, people were feeling the declining living standards, and longed for The End Times and "his return"

Have not read the book, but I also find it's claims (as explained by you) questionable.

I come much closer to agreeing with Dr. Bart Ehrman's stated opinion that Jesus was an Apocalyptic Prophet, much like the many others around his time. I am not yet convinced that his opinion is valid, or representative of the truth, but I certainly agree that there is supporting evidence. While I'm far from "all knowing" on the subject, and what little I do know has been through self guided studying of various related books, I've not run across anything that supports Jesus leading an armed revolt.

ETA: I would love to see one or two of what you consider to be the best representative/supported claims of the book, with their references, so I could make a more valid judgment of the idea. I might even buy the book if it seems to be based on valid research with decent references backing it up.