Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Hokulele]

Well when I read it the first time, I did not see the word "never" in the sentence. Now when I read it, it is there. So will leave it at that. You will also notice that the grammar is bad in the sentence.

Wah.

 

[DOC]

according to christ, even those who didn't know of him are damned.

This is not true.

 

[Simon39759]

This is not true.

Really? Let me check...

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. *
John 14:6


*Except of course if you have not heard about me, then exceptions will be made.

Oh, my bad, I did not notice the asterisk...

And, at any rate, the Jews that were murdered during the Holocaust had been living in Europe since the diaspora.
That was roughly 1300 years of Christianity.
How could they not have heard about JC?

 

[paximperium]

Jesus said in John 14:6

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If someone goes through life, without ever hearing about Jesus and his message than I believe a just God will be just. For those who reject Christ and the message well according to Christ you will be damned.

So the Jews killed by the Nazis go to hell and the Nazi Christians go to heaven.

So DOC is a sexist, Slavery Apologist and now Nazi Apologist. Dig yourself into a deeper hole DOC.

 

[paximperium]

So the 6 million who were reported to die knew they were going to die by going where the Nazi were taking them and still went? That doesn't make sense.

You mean they had a choice when the nice folk with machineguns said otherwise?

Look up the Warsaw Ghetto uprising for an example of the Jews "not knowing".

 

[babbits]

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. *

*Except of course if you have not heard about me, then exceptions will be made. "

Doc, please give chapter and verse for Jesus' words after the asterisk.

 

[Simon39759]

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. *

*Except of course if you have not heard about me, then exceptions will be made. "

Doc, please give chapter and verse for Jesus' words after the asterisk.

To be clear, that second quote was not from DOC, sorry if my post was confusing, I edited it a bit for clarity.

 

[paximperium]

To be clear, that second quote was not from DOC, sorry if my post was confusing, I edited it a bit for clarity.

No, Babbits has a completely valid question concerning where DOC got his idea or is just making things up like he always does.

 

[Simon39759]

Oh, yeah, Doc is making it along, and that was the subject of my initial post.

But, because both my quoting of Doc and my (altered) quote of the Bible were so close, I was afraid that Babbits might have mistaken that second quote as actually coming from Doc.

 

[babbits]

Decent of you to explain that your amendment to Doc's quote was merely an ironic extrapolation, Simon. It sure had me scratching my head!

 

[Simon39759]

Are you ironic, now?

Also, it was not an amendment to Doc's quote. It was an amedment to John's, to bring it in line with Doc's reading...

 

[joobz]

This is not true.

What do you think is meant by this

The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Remember that Jesus condoned slavery and he condoned the BEATING OF SLAVES even when they did not know the rules. Although he did say the punishment wouldn't be as severe, he still believed it right to punish them with a whip.

Jesus used this analogy to explain how god will mette out his justice.

It's clear as day, DOC. God will punish you for things you didn't know you weren't supposed to do.

If none get into heaven without Jesus, then that INCLUDES those who don't know about him.

You may not like that rule, but that's what the bible describes. The only way you can claim it doesn't is if you become a "cafeteria christian".

 

[wollery]

So DOC, I see you're still ignoring the evidence that has been presented that the Holocaust wasn't a secret. That several different groups, including the governments of the US and UK, knew what was going on.

Why are you ignoring this evidence DOC?

 

[Elizabeth I]

So a Jew can murder 20 people and will still be going to heaven because the person was born a Jew?

And what verse are you talking about.

Are you smoking crack? Who said anything about Jews murdering anyone?

Try to follow along here - I'll make it as simple as possible:

1. You said no one goes to heaven without accepting Jesus as savior.
   
2. Jews do not accept Jesus as savior.
   
3. Therefore, according to your reading of the Bible, Jews are not going to heaven.
   
4. However, according to the Bible, long before Jesus was a twinkle in God's eye, God made a deal with Abraham that the Jews would be His people.
   
5. But now you say that just because Jesus decided to take a short trip to Earth, God is going back on that deal and will allow all Jews who do not accept Jesus as savior to be damned to hell.

So I asked you if your God breaks his promises.

Here are some verses:

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger*, which is not of thy seed.
17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

*p.s. Note that this passage also confirms God's acceptance of slavery.

 

[X]

He didn't silence the Jew Matthew did he.

When did Herod die?
When did Matthew write his stories?

Remember, the tax collector Matthew walked and ate with Jesus for 3 years. It would be obvious that Jesus or his mother would have heard about it from people they knew in Bethlehem or the surrounding areas at some point in their life. Jesus would of then had 3 years to tell Matthew about it.

You didn't answer six''s question.
How could Herod have stopped Matthew writing if Herod was dead (approx. 4 BC) before Matthew wrote?
Hypothesizing when Jesus could have told Matthew about the slaughter is not an answer to the point raised.
I, for one, am curious to see an answer.

If it was well known, how could 6 million die, that doesn't make sense. And the Holocaust is history. What, you want the Holocaust to be forgot, It should be shouted from the rooftops every chance possible so people don't forget. The people who died certainly wouldn't have wanted it forgotten and hidden.

You've brought this up a few times, despite Wollery's excellent summary of the history of the Holocaust.
Therefore, I shall assume you did not read Wollery's post, and quote it below for you.
It really would be worth your time to read.

You're kidding, right?

I mean, you really have to be kidding!

Nobody was unaware that the Jews were being systematically rounded up and shipped away. Nobody.

What people were unaware of was exactly what was happening after that, because the Nazis were very careful to place the concentration camps away from large population centres. The only witnesses were either Nazi guards, who weren't going to tell anyone about what was going on, or the prisoners themselves, who couldn't leave to be able to tell anyone else. As for the secret being kept for years, the exterminations began in 1941, were stepped up in 1942, as a result of the "final solution", and ended in 1945 when the camps were liberated. The secret was (mostly, see later) kept during that time because there were no witnesses to the exterminations able to come forward. As soon as the camps were liberated news began to come out and was broadcast around the world. Here's an internal directive from the BBC about the holocaust, dated 19th April 1945. There are also links on that page to audio file of the news about concentration camps being broadcast just days after their liberation.

Of course, the Polish resistance knew about the camps, as did the UK and US governments, although they didn't make the information widely available, presumably because they couldn't corroborate the stories.

As for "other Jews", whilst they didn't know for certain that the holocaust was happening until the liberation of the camps began, very few had any illusions about what the Nazis wanted, and what they were capable of. My grandmother's cousin was living in the UK during the war, her immediate family had been unable to get out of Germany. Everyone in the family knew that they were extremely unlikely to ever see them again.

Hardly a secret kept for years.

But the worst thing about this post (and seriously it takes a lot to be worse than your factual errors, and dishonest misdirection) is that you are comparing two entirely different situations. On one hand you have the removal of millions of people from their homes, on the pretext of taking them to forced labour camps (a story which was believed by most people largely because it was, in part, true), where they were quietly exterminated, leaving very few witnesses, and none who were free to go anywhere to tell people about it until after the liberation of the camps. On the other you have soldiers coming into a large town, killing all the babies, and then leaving, which certainly allowed the citizens of that town to tell other people about what had happened, within hours of it happening.

You really need to do some research before you start spouting half truths and lies on such well documented subjects.

Finally (and on-topic), where is the long-promised evidence that the new Testament writers told the truth?

Evidence.

Not subjective opinions of their writing style which show at best that they thought they were writing the truth.


And never fear DOC. I'm compiling a list of archeological inconsistencies with the Bible.

 

[arthwollipot]

Holocaust conspiracy - check!

 

[DOC]

So DOC, I see you're still ignoring the evidence that has been presented that the Holocaust wasn't a secret. That several different groups, including the governments of the US and UK, knew what was going on.

OK, if you want to believe that the many people who walked into the gas chambers after being told they were going to get a shower knew what was going to happen that is your right.

And also if you want to believe that I would assume hundreds of thousands maybe millions of people got on railway box cars knowing full well they were going to their deaths that is your right also.

 

[DOC]

And never fear DOC. I'm compiling a list of archeological inconsistencies with the Bible.

Someone I forget who said earlier that Archaeologists rarely use the Bible anymore. I asked for a source of that statement and I don't believe I ever got one.

 

[arthwollipot]

Someone I forget who said earlier that Archaeologists rarely use the Bible anymore. I asked for a source of that statement and I don't believe I ever got one.

I'd actually be really surprised if any of the archaeologists I know used the Bible.

 

[DOC]

Finally (and on-topic), where is the long-promised evidence that the new Testament writers told the truth?

http://books.google.com/books?id=PC...Geisler+10+reasons&client=firefox-a#PPA275,M1

As long as people keep asking the same question, I've got he right to give the same answer. That is my answer, and that will always be my answer, if you don't like it. so be it.

Not subjective opinions of their writing style which show at best that they thought they were writing the truth.

There is a difference between a subjective opinion and a logical analyzation of many concrete facts. Logical thinking is not subjective and Geisler shows plenty of logical thinking in the above website and his books.