Chávez: America Bad, Russia Good.

[Tailgater]

the connection of economic systems and individual freedoms?
you dont really want me to explain that with my english? do you?

Hmm, you could be right there, but I think if I better understood your underlying thoughts, it would clear other things up sometimes.

I might start a thread on that question later.

 

[DC]

You know, what an anonymous Swiss guy on an internet forum expects isn't much evidence that there will be a referendum about this.

Just sayin'

What if there isn't a referendum?

i did not claim that there will be a referendum, i clearly said, i expect one. that is just my oppinion....

when there will be no referendum attempt, then it is because people are not interested or agree with it. what i doubt.

when there will be a referndum attempt but is blocked by the government, well then we need to have a closer look.

So you don't trust Putin and his gan, but you welcome their dirty money?

i would not welcome their money. i never said that

You don't trust Putin and his gang, but are OK if they get a military base near Venezuela anyway? What if they decide to overthrow Chavez?

if the Venezuelans want a Russian base in theyr country, well then i am OK with it. i would not do it, i would not like it, i would fight against it. but thats me, its not my country.....

You don't trust Putin and his gang but don't trust Obama and his administration more?

i never said i trust Putin more....
I pretty much like Obama so far. while i dont even agree on his crisis managment.... and i trust him more than Putin.

But if the people votes "yes" to your hypothetical referendum, then it's their fault isn't it?

then its their decision, isnt it?

 

[DC]

Hmm, you could be right there, but I think if I better understood your underlying thoughts, it would clear other things up sometimes.

I might start a thread on that question later.

yes pls do
it is a very interesting topic, especially now it think.

 

[Tailgater]

i would not do it, i would not like it, i would fight against it.

I will not eat green eggs and ham.

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

 

[Pardalis]

i did not claim that there will be a referendum, i clearly said, i expect one. that is just my oppinion....

But that non-existing referendun is your only reply to the topic. It's like you're trying to dismiss the implications of the OP by throwing in that idiotic referendum idea.

when there will be no referendum attempt, then it is because people are not interested or agree with it.

Uh? Please explain that to me.

when there will be a referndum attempt but is blocked by the government, well then we need to have a closer look.

Just that, a "closer look"?

if the Venezuelans want a Russian base in theyr country, well then i am OK with it.

Again, that's assuming that's what they want... You have no indication that there wil be a referendum, remember? Please stop confusing your opinions and fantasies with reality.

i would not do it, i would not like it, i would fight against it. but thats me, its not my country.....

Again if there is no referendum, or a referendum and people say "no", and Chavez does it anyway (which is more likely), then you will support dissent and opposition, ad therefore the US?

i never said i trust Putin more....
I pretty much like Obama so far. while i dont even agree on his crisis managment.... and i trust him more than Putin.

OK, so why a need for a Russian base near Venezuela then?

 

[Tailgater]

What if they decide to overthrow Chavez?

That would be a classic move and almost freakin hilarious if it wasn't so scary.

 

[DC]

But that non-existing referendun is your only reply to the topic. It's like you're trying to dismiss the implications of the OP by throwing in that idiotic referendum idea.

so for you a referendum is idotic.......

Uh? Please explain that to me.

you do know that they have a partial direct democracy?
people can start a referendum.

Just that, a "closer look"?

a very sceptical look.

Again, that's assuming that's what they want... You have no indication that there wil be a referendum, remember? Please stop confusing your opinions and fantasies with reality.

??????

Again if there is no referendum, or a referendum and people say "no", and Chavez does it anyway (which is more likely), then you will support dissent and opposition, ad therefore the US?

cant agree on it as you seem to have no clue about the venezuelan democracy.........

OK, so why a need for a Russian base near Venezuela then?

i hope there is no need for a russian base. i dont see one.

 

[Pardalis]

so for you a referendum is idotic.......

No, your blind assurance that there will be one is idiotic.

You do know that they have a partial direct democracy? people can start a referendum.

No, you said that if there isn't one, this means they don't want one, wich is absolutely ridiculous.

If Chavez does it without a referendum, to you that's evidence that the people are implicitly in agreement with him, that they chose not to have a referendum because they agree anyway?

What kind of thinking is that? Why the need for referenda?

a very sceptical look.

What does a "skeptical look" entail, in the real world? If Chavez does something that goes against his people's will, you would need much more than a "skeptical look".

cant agree on it as you seem to have no clue about the venezuelan democracy.........

Cop out.

Let's backtrack a little.

Let's forget for a moment that referendum, since there is no evidence that there will be one.

If Chavez goes ahead with the Russian military base, will you support the opposition to it?

 

[Tailgater]

Not if it's only 49.99% of the population.

 

[Pardalis]

Funny isn't it?

If there is a referendum, then it's the will of the people, if there isn't a referendum, then it's the will of the people not to have one.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Funny isn't it?

If there is a referendum, then it's the will of the people, if there isn't a referendum, then it's the will of the people not to have one.

Pardon my confusion, but if we assume a system where concerned citizens affect politics through electing representatives and passing referendums, isn't it logical to assume that the will of the people is represented by the actions of their elected officials and which referendums they were concerned enough to pass?

 

[Pardalis]

Pardon my confusion, but if we assume a system where concerned citizens affect politics through electing representatives and passing referendums, isn't it logical to assume that the will of the people is represented by the actions of their elected officials and which referendums they were concerned enough to pass?

So whatever Chavez does, it's de facto the people's will?

 

[quixotecoyote]

So whatever Chavez does, it's de facto the people's will?

To the extent that he was freely elected by the population to represent their interests, just as Bush's Iraq war was the people's will to the extent that they freely elected a guy who would do that.

Now acknowledge the other half of my post.

 

[DC]

No, your blind assurance that there will be one is idiotic.

what the hell. blind assurance?????
I just stated my OPPINION, i hope you alow me to have one.

No, you said that if there isn't one, this means they don't want one, wich is absolutely ridiculous.

If Chavez does it without a referendum, to you that's evidence that the people are implicitly in agreement with him, that they chose not to have a referendum because they agree anyway?

What kind of thinking is that? Why the need for referenda?

you should know that the president can start a referendum, the National assembly on 2/3 majority and also the people, they have to collect signatures from 10% of the registered voters, or in case of a decree, only 5% of the registered voters. So they can oppose the decision.

but as it is a international treaty it gets difficult. maybe they need to ammendt the constitution.

thus the people have a way to oppose a decision. if they not oppose it, then it must be because they agree with it or dont care about it.

What does a "skeptical look" entail, in the real world? If Chavez does something that goes against his people's will, you would need much more than a "skeptical look".

depends what that sceptical look will tell us.

Cop out.

Let's backtrack a little.

Let's forget for a moment that referendum, since there is no evidence that there will be one.

If Chavez goes ahead with the Russian military base, will you support the opposition to it?

depends what that opposition plans to do.
i dont like the idea of a foreign base in Venezuela, especially not a Russian one.

 

[Pardalis]

To the extent that he was freely elected by the population to represent their interests, just as Bush's Iraq war was the people's will to the extent that they freely elected a guy who would do that.

The Iraq war was approved by the Senate, Bush couldn't do it without it.

 

[quixotecoyote]

The Iraq war was approved by the Senate, Bush couldn't do it without it.

I completely agree; since the Senate also consists of elected officials, it supports my argument.

 

[Pardalis]

thus the people have a way to oppose a decision. if they not oppose it, then it must be because they agree with it or dont care about it.

Yeah, and the oposition has no voice in that country, it's always accused of being of US influence, so how is it going to be listened to?

depends what that sceptical look will tell us.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

depends what that opposition plans to do.
i dont like the idea of a foreign base in Venezuela, especially not a Russian one.

So you are against Chavez on this?

 

[Pardalis]

I completely agree; since the Senate also consists of elected officials, it supports my argument.

Time wil tell if the Venezuelans "care" or not to have a foreign military base near their borders.

 

[DC]

Yeah, and the oposition has no voice in that country, it's always accused of being of US influence, so how is it going to be listened to?

????

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz



So you are against Chavez on this?

isnt that clear?
yes i dislike this decision of Hugo Chavez.

 

[DC]

Time wil tell if the Venezuelans "care" or not to have a foreign military base near their borders.

How many bases has the USA around the world? i hope most are not against the will of the people of those countrys......