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Electric Car - Tesla Type S

technoextreme said:
Wrong. First of all saying you can run a fuel cell at low temperatures is a bit on the dumb side because it doesn't mean you want to do that. Second of all I would like some sources because the biggest problem is carbon monoxide poisoning.
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One from 2004, as they were working to overcome the problem:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/3617

More from 2004 with the first successful cold weather test:

http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_100885/title_Honda-FCX-Proves-Its-ColdStart-Capabilities-in-Public-Test/newsarticle.html

An article about GM testing in Germany:

http://www.kbb.com/kbb/green-cars/articles.aspx?BlogPostId=1292&r=469936502228526200

Here's one from someone driving for Project Driveway:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=pollution-free-hydrogen-vehicle-hits-driveway

And a quote:

The whoosh of compressors as the vehicle shuts down—a sound that Recchia-O'Neill says makes "you feel like you're in a spaceship"—is the key to driving it in frigid weather. Producing electricity in a hydrogen fuel cell has one by-product: water. And water can freeze at winter temperatures common in New York State. So GM has designed its Generation IV fuel cell assembly to eliminate all water from the stack when it stops operating. "It started up no problem in cold weather," Recchia-O'Neill says, even in a snowstorm and on days the temperature dropped below freezing
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A pdf from government testing of fuel cells in cold weather and possible solutions:

http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/pem_fc_freeze_milestone.pdf

Pure water is formed at the cathode as a result of electric power production in the fuel cell, and the polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) should be well hydrated to maintain high proton conductance and low internal resistance. The inherent presence of water in PEMFC systems creates a problem when vehicles using these power sources are parked in sub-freezing ambient weather conditions. Freeze/thaw cycles can create a durability issue for the fuel cell system (such as related to internal ice expansion), and create a convenience problem for the vehicle user if a long warm-up period or large energy input is required before the vehicle may be driven. Even though the detailed mechanism of the rate reduction is not well known, it is believed that either the proton conductivity of the PEM becomes poor at these temperatures or that the effectiveness of the catalyst is so poor that a sufficient amount of current cannot be drawn.
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And the problems associated with cold weather performance:

•Delayed fuel cell system startup and drive away
•Temporary loss of fuel cell system performance.
•Irreversible and reversible performance degradation.
•Loss of fuel efficiency and increased fuel consumption.
•Physical degradation of membrane allowing crossover of gases.
•Lowered MEA transport and degraded kinetic properties.
•Clogging due to water and icing in pores and flow channels
•Reactant starvation and/or imbalance at low temperature operation.
•Increased mechanical stresses on fuel cell components and morphological changes.
•Loss of thermal and electrical interfacial contact.
•Adverse effects in balance of plant components, due to freezing water.
•Increased system costs due to the requirement for freeze mitigation strategies.
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Disbelief said:
One from 2004, as they were working to overcome the problem:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/3617

More from 2004 with the first successful cold weather test:

http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_100885/title_Honda-FCX-Proves-Its-ColdStart-Capabilities-in-Public-Test/newsarticle.html

An article about GM testing in Germany:

http://www.kbb.com/kbb/green-cars/articles.aspx?BlogPostId=1292&r=469936502228526200

Here's one from someone driving for Project Driveway:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=pollution-free-hydrogen-vehicle-hits-driveway

And a quote:



A pdf from government testing of fuel cells in cold weather and possible solutions:

http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/pem_fc_freeze_milestone.pdf



And the problems associated with cold weather performance:
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I don't want to read press releases because they are devoid of any information. That last link that I read pretty much confirms what I all ready knew. You can't run a fuel cell at freezing temperatures.
 
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technoextreme said:
I don't want to read press releases because they are devoid of any information. That last link that I read pretty much confirms what I all ready knew. You can't run a fuel cell at freezing temperatures.
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Then read the government testing pdf.

Except that it has been done. So, the real world proves you wrong.
 
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Its time to take a look back to Tesla's efforts to transfer electric power radiatively/ If means can be developed to do so, electric cars will have no batteries or range limits.
 
Disbelief said:
Then read the government testing pdf.

Except that it has been done. So, the real world proves you wrong.
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You read the government pdf because obviously you didn't. Or you would have missed the part about the ideal operating temperature of a fuel cell being 80C. Which confused the hell out me. It's not cold starting like you can do with a car. It's heating the fuel cell rapidly up to a temperature where it will actually do something. Read!!!! It will do you some good. It makes you smarter.
 
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technoextreme said:
You read the government pdf because obviously you didn't. Or you would have missed the part about the ideal operating temperature of a fuel cell being 80C. Which confused the hell out me. It's not cold starting like you can do with a car. It's heating the fuel cell rapidly up to a temperature where it will actually do something. Read!!!! It will do you some good. It makes you smarter.
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Ideal temperature, but not the only operating temp. They can start and reach full power in 30 seconds at cold temps. But hey, don't let facts get in the way, just continue to make snide comments.

I guess you missed the part where they actually work in cold weather.
 
Misunderstanding

paximperium said:
Yeah...and?

Look, I have no idea what or if you have any point at all. Throwing numbers around to claim that electric vehicles are less efficient than gas vehicles is false and patently so.
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How did I say, or even imply, that electric vehicles are less efficient that gasoline-powered vehicles? What I am saying is that electricity isn't free and significant amounts of green (non-carbon-based) electricity won't be here anytime soon, so the electricity that electric vehicles use will have to come from fossil fuels for a long time to come. That was the reason for my multiplying the efficiencies of electric-powered and gasoline-powered vehicles: an electric-powered vehicle that depends on fossil-fuel-produced electricity isn't as efficient as its stated efficiency rating suggests.

If that doesn't clear it up, someone else will have to explain it to you
 
mdcatdad said:
How did I say, or even imply, that electric vehicles are less efficient that gasoline-powered vehicles? What I am saying is that electricity isn't free and significant amounts of green (non-carbon-based) electricity won't be here anytime soon, so the electricity that electric vehicles use will have to come from fossil fuels for a long time to come. That was the reason for my multiplying the efficiencies of electric-powered and gasoline-powered vehicles: an electric-powered vehicle that depends on fossil-fuel-produced electricity isn't as efficient as its stated efficiency rating suggests.

If that doesn't clear it up, someone else will have to explain it to you
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That has been taken into account and you are and continue to be wrong.

Electric Vehicles are still MORE efficient than gas vehicles even when distribution inefficiencies are taken into account and on par with turbo diesel vehicles.

And has been repeated...oh the 4th time now, if and when we get more alternative energy online, your argument about fossil fuel produced electricity becomes more false than it already is.
 
mdcatdad said:
How did I say, or even imply, that electric vehicles are less efficient that gasoline-powered vehicles? What I am saying is that electricity isn't free and significant amounts of green (non-carbon-based) electricity won't be here anytime soon, so the electricity that electric vehicles use will have to come from fossil fuels for a long time to come. That was the reason for my multiplying the efficiencies of electric-powered and gasoline-powered vehicles: an electric-powered vehicle that depends on fossil-fuel-produced electricity isn't as efficient as its stated efficiency rating suggests.

If that doesn't clear it up, someone else will have to explain it to you
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Wouldn't this depend strongly on how power is produced in your region? In Iceland I would expect it to be very green, also in any country with a lot of nuclear power.
 
Disbelief said:
Ideal temperature, but not the only operating temp. They can start and reach full power in 30 seconds at cold temps. But hey, don't let facts get in the way, just continue to make snide comments.
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Im making snide comments because unlike you I've actually read more than a press release. Hell, I've actually run fuel cells before.
 
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technoextreme said:
Im making snide comments because unlike you I've actually read more than a press release. Hell, I've actually run fuel cells before.
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I asked this before.
What do you think about Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines like how BMW is building?
 
paximperium said:
Your car/SUV has a primary gas tank but also has a smaller reserve tank, usually 1-2gallons and also has residual gas in the various tubing and pipes.
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Really? Never seen that in the 40 years I've driven cars and ridden bikes. With (older) bikes you had a crude but effective 2-way fuel tap, with holes at different heights for the outlet into the carbs. This was replaced some years ago with a sensor (float) that triggered a warning light on the instrument console. The latter is what cars had for decades, whether in the form of the red E section on the fuel gauge or an actual warning light.

(There have been cars with twin tanks, such as the Jaguar XJ6, but that's something else.)

Anyone know how modern cars measure the fuel you put in? Is it a height-based system such as a float or is it weight-based (strain-gauge)? Or something else? I suspect the readout I see on the dash implies accuracy which is simply not available.
 
paximperium said:
Do you see any future for Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines?

No issue with icing since the hot gasses should keep the H20 liquid/gas even at freezing temperatures.
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AFAIK fuel cells were first developed for the Apollo space program. Does anyone know what temps they had to work in?

(See Apollo 13 near-disaster.)
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
The biggest problem to overcome is torque ripple. The most straightforward approach is to use a sensor to provide feedback on the rotor position and modulate the drive accordingly, but the sensor raises reliability and cost issues, so more advanced methods are being developed which can deduce the rotor position without a discrete sensor by using the currents / voltages in the phases of the motor windings.
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Got any cites for "torque ripple"?
 
TrueSceptic said:
Really? Never seen that in the 40 years I've driven cars and ridden bikes. With (older) bikes you had a crude but effective 2-way fuel tap, with holes at different heights for the outlet into the carbs. This was replaced some years ago with a sensor (float) that triggered a warning light on the instrument console. The latter is what cars had for decades, whether in the form of the red E section on the fuel gauge or an actual warning light.

(There have been cars with twin tanks, such as the Jaguar XJ6, but that's something else.)

Anyone know how modern cars measure the fuel you put in? Is it a height-based system such as a float or is it weight-based (strain-gauge)? Or something else? I suspect the readout I see on the dash implies accuracy which is simply not available.
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Well it technically isn't a separate tank, the residual gas below the main piping and occasionally a smaller separate bulge below the main gas is usually called the reserve tank and it is more often filled with sediment so it isn't a good idea to use it all the time.

Sorry if I gave the impression that it was a separate tank.

I believe the floater is still the most common system in use but some newer cars have a computer than monitors it and reads it more accurately to the shape of the tank.
 
HannonRJ said:
Its time to take a look back to Tesla's efforts to transfer electric power radiatively/ If means can be developed to do so, electric cars will have no batteries or range limits.
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Just think about that. Just consider the inverse square law. Some people are concerned about cellphone EM radiation. This is less than minute compared with power transmission.
 
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