• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Electric Car - Tesla Type S

madurobob said:
But, if a nice hybrid model shows up for a reasonable price, I'll do it.
Click to expand...
You may be in luck:

Hybrid Vehicle Gas Mileage Estimates (city/hwy)
(2007 & 2008 Hybrid SUV models)​
34/30 mpg: 2008 Mazda Tribute (AWD)
34/30 mpg: 2008 Ford Escape (AWD)
34/30 mpg: 2008 Mercury Mariner (4WD)
27/32 mpg: 2007 Saturn Vue Green Line (2WD)
27/25 mpg: 2008 Toyota Highlander (AWD)
26/24 mpg: 2008 Lexus 400h (AWD)
21/22 mpg: 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe (2WD)
20/20 mpg: 2008 GMC Yukon (4WD)​
http://www.hybridsuv.com/
 
madurobob said:
I've been having this "discussion" w/Ms Madurobob. Its time for a new vehicle so I suggested she start looking around for what she likes. Everything she's come back with has been a behemoth SUV. When I asked why, the reason was that we need to be able fit all the stuff in for our annual two weeks at the beach.

Preposterous! It makes no sense to drive an over-sized vehicle 50 weeks a year just so on one trip you have enough room for all your crap. If it really became an issue we could rent a van for the vacation and the rental cost would be more than made up by the savings from driving a more appropriate car the rest of the year (and yes, before you ask, I do ride a motorcycle most of the time).
Click to expand...

We (Mrs. Vader and I) drive a Dodge Magnum. Decent mileage, holds a few people plus the dog (A greyhound). However, traveling to the coast can be tricky if we take more than us and the dog. So we bought a roof-top carrier.

http://www.prolineracks.com/thule-867-tahoe-roof-cargo-bag.html

Bought removeable racks for it, and when we need the capacity, we have it! When we don't, they store nicely elsewhere. We don't use them much, but they're far better than buying an oversized SUV just for a couple weeks of the year.
 
Added inefficiency

Let's say that gasoline-powered engines are 40% efficient and that electric vehicles are 80% efficient. Given that most of all the power in the electric grid is produced by fossil fuels (20% is nuclear in the US) an electric-powered vehicle would seem to be 32% efficient (.4 x .8).

Other considerations: any building owner with an outlet on an exterior wall will have to turn it off to prevent the "siphoning" of electricity; many people park their vehicles far from electrical outlets. A large expansion of the grid will be necessary (as it is, it's strained now in hot weather). More fossil fuel will be needed to do that

paximperium said:
Actually that is false and an oversimplification. Power from the power grid, despite the loss during the transfer and storage into batteries is still more efficient than burning gasoline even if it is from a coal power plant. We're also seeing more solar and wind power coming online which will help to further decrease pollution and CO2 emissions.

It is likely, we will see more efficient engines come online with Direct Injection, forced induction and better computer controlled fuel management. This will be coupled with "light" hybrid technology and start-stop engine systems and regeneration braking.

This will be a place holder technology until the next system(whether plug-in electric, hydrogen etc.) comes online.
Click to expand...
 
Disbelief said:
I believe that both GM and Toyota have solved the problem of cold weather starting, but I haven't found a good source yet.
Click to expand...
Heater heater heater heater heater heater.
EDIT:
Low temperature fuel cells exist. The problem is that they suffer from problems from pollution which ironically I will be studying.
EDIT EDIT:
Water is a byproduct how the hell do you stop that from freezing inside the cell.
paximperium said:
I believe that it was done exactly like that on purpose to make a point. They specifically said that how you drove your car made more of an impact with fuel savings than the size of the engine.

They did a couple of nice stunts like driving an Audi A8 diesel almost 800 miles on one tank of gas using "hypermilling techniques" with an "economy race" where they drove various cars to reach almost 40+mph/gallon.

It believe it is a completely valid point.
Toyota and the other hybrid manufacturers usually warranty the batter pack for up to 10years. The replacement is approximately $5000-8000.
Click to expand...
Didn't they do an economy race where all three of them had to drive x amount of miles and none of them believed they could do it because mathematically they had x-100 miles of range.
 
Last edited:
mdcatdad said:
Let's say that gasoline-powered engines are 40% efficient and that electric vehicles are 80% efficient. Given that most of all the power in the electric grid is produced by fossil fuels (20% is nuclear in the US) an electric-powered vehicle would seem to be 32% efficient (.4 x .8).
Click to expand...
No. You are making an assumption that the power grid will solely be powered with coal or gas when in fact many other technologies such as solar and wind are coming online.

I have no idea what sort of math you are using. Gas engine efficiency is approx 25-30% while an electric engine is in the high 80% range. You may want to recalculate your numbers.
Other considerations: any building owner with an outlet on an exterior wall will have to turn it off to prevent the "siphoning" of electricity; many people park their vehicles far from electrical outlets. A large expansion of the grid will be necessary (as it is, it's strained now in hot weather).
Click to expand...
Infrastructure expansion is a separate issue and will occur with or without electric vehicles.

More fossil fuel will be needed to do that
Click to expand...
Yes. So does building a windfarm or a solar power plant.
 
technoextreme said:
Didn't they do an economy race where all three of them had to drive x amount of miles and none of them believed they could do it because mathematically they had x-100 miles of range.
Click to expand...
Yes they did. Using their "theoretical" ranges and best mpg, on the onboard computer, they would run out of gas 40-50miles from their goal.

The sneaky thing is, the car computer does not take the reserve fuel into account.
 
paximperium said:
Yes they did. Using their "theoretical" ranges and best mpg, on the onboard computer, they would run out of gas 40-50miles from their goal.

The sneaky thing is, the car computer does not take the reserve fuel into account.
Click to expand...
Yeah I noticed that when one of them pointed out that they were running on E which does not mean you have ran out of fuel. Admittedly, I would like to know how Clarkson got there when he tried his hardest to run out of fuel.
 
Last edited:
technoextreme said:
Yeah I noticed that when one of them pointed out that they were running on E which does not mean you have ran out of fuel. Admittedly, I would like to know how Clarkson got there when he tried his hardest to run out of fuel.
Click to expand...
I believe he drove a huge diesel powered Jaguar...likely with an equally huge gas reserve. I think he also did a lot of highway driving.
 
madurobob said:
Three or four people in the vehicle, plus clothes for all, food staples, beach toys, etc... Its three if I have to work and ride down later, four if I am free and we all drive together.
Click to expand...

There is no need then for a monster SUV. A station wagon or a small SUV or a minivan would be fine.

I have a forrester which is somewhere in the SUV/Stationwagon end. I like having the ability to carry things with out renting anything, and if I really want to bring lots of crap it can tow a small trailer.

Now riding in the back seat for a while would be annoying, how far is the trip? Are we talking 2 hour drive or 10 hour drive?
 
paximperium said:
You may be in luck:

Hybrid Vehicle Gas Mileage Estimates (city/hwy)
(2007 & 2008 Hybrid SUV models)​
34/30 mpg: 2008 Mazda Tribute (AWD)
34/30 mpg: 2008 Ford Escape (AWD)
34/30 mpg: 2008 Mercury Mariner (4WD)
27/32 mpg: 2007 Saturn Vue Green Line (2WD)
27/25 mpg: 2008 Toyota Highlander (AWD)
26/24 mpg: 2008 Lexus 400h (AWD)
21/22 mpg: 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe (2WD)
20/20 mpg: 2008 GMC Yukon (4WD)​
http://www.hybridsuv.com/
Click to expand...

The problem is that many of them had virtualy no hybrids made for them. There were what a 100 Yukon Hybrids made?
 
ponderingturtle said:
There is no need then for a monster SUV. A station wagon or a small SUV or a minivan would be fine.

I have a forrester which is somewhere in the SUV/Stationwagon end. I like having the ability to carry things with out renting anything, and if I really want to bring lots of crap it can tow a small trailer.

Now riding in the back seat for a while would be annoying, how far is the trip? Are we talking 2 hour drive or 10 hour drive?
Click to expand...
In fact, our current 8.5 year old is an Outback. Same frame, a couple of inches lower height in the cargo box. Its packed tight when we head to the beach so a little more room would be nice, but I agree there is no need for a LOT more room. Beach is about 3 hours.

The issue is I want something that size or smaller, she wants that size or, preferably, bigger. I've seen her drive; she doesn't need bigger ;)
 
Tesla has asked for $450M dollars so that it can build the S...

120 miles on the standard pack with what payload? Just the driver? At what speed?

How many 0-60 sprints does that include?

How much slower is the 0-60 time with the extended range pack?

etc. :D
 
Still...

paximperium said:
No. You are making an assumption that the power grid will solely be powered with coal or gas when in fact many other technologies such as solar and wind are coming online.

Which will comprise WHAT percentage of total power output? <10% for
a very long time

I have no idea what sort of math you are using. Gas engine efficiency is approx 25-30% while an electric engine is in the high 80% range. You may want to recalculate your numbers.
Infrastructure expansion is a separate issue and will occur with or without electric vehicles.

Yes. So does building a windfarm or a solar power plant.
Click to expand...

The numbers were for sake of example. Since both are well under 100%, the total serial efficiency will be significantly less than the better of the two
 
Disbelief said:
No, what I can find is that they actually have them starting up at well below freezing. It is not just GM and Toyota, as it appears that Honda, Mercedes and BMW have it solves as well.
Click to expand...

YAY!
 
mdcatdad said:
The numbers were for sake of example. Since both are well under 100%, the total serial efficiency will be significantly less than the better of the two
Click to expand...
Yeah...and?

Look, I have no idea what or if you have any point at all. Throwing numbers around to claim that electric vehicles are less efficient than gas vehicles is false and patently so.

There are many analysis done concerning efficiency and even with the power grid requirement, electric vehicles are more efficient that gasoline vehicles but not as efficient as modern turbo diesels. As battery tech improves, newer electric drivetrains and more alternative energy systems come online, the "efficiency" of electric will improve even as gas engine tech improves.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom