Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not

Zeuzz wrote

You can add our Moon, Jupiters moons, Saturn's moons and comets to that as well.

But as as you said they will most probably say they are insignificant and unrelated phenomena!!

And that's just OUR solar system!
And once again your ignorance is showing. These are charge separations powered by an external source. Charge separations have to be created by an external force.

You still have not told us the mysterious force that separates charge in cosmic plasma filaments. It sound like you are just parroting PC/EU web sites without actually understanding what the actual science is.
 
And when a Beam (electron or Ion) passes thru plasma something called Buneman instability arises from the very fact Ions are 1836 times more massive than the electron.

Whooooohahahahahahahahaha
The Buneman instability arises from the fact that the ions are heavier than the electrons?
Whooooohahahahahahahahaha

Oh Solly just because of these hilariously rediculous pieces of text I stay in this thread!

This sets up all sorts of wonderful plasma effects, like double layers, charge separation, charge equalization channels (FAC's) and lots of funky electromagnetic effects .i.e. radio wave, visual waves, UV , Xray and gamma ray in fact the entire observational spectrum!

And it gets even better, double layers AND charge separation AND charge equalization channels (whatever these are)

WOW!
 
It is well known that the solid earth is charged up to millions of coulombs, such that there is an atmospheric voltage potential of something like 300,000 Volts (well deduced from lightning discharges and various geophysical consideration). [brief reference: Natural plasmas » Solar-terrestrial forms » The lower atmosphere and surface of the Earth]

How is this large charge separation and voltage maintained?

Unless someone can answer this basic question about charge separation so close home (in an evironment that is infact a very weak plasma), I see no reason why anyone can dismiss any occurence of substantially large charge separation occuring elsewhere in space.

This has already been told to you, Zeuzzz, the atmosphere is a very poor conductor (not a plasma at all not even a weak one) and therefore discharges can only happen in extreme situations like thunderstorms.

In the universe, however, the medium is full plasma, with all charges highly mobile, and thus charge separation can only remain under very specific conditions.

WHY THE FRAK DON'T THE PLASMA UNIVERSE PROPONENTS KNOW THESE KIND OF SIMPLE THINGS???????????????/
 
Apologies Zig. Reality check wrote:

*Velocity dispersions of galaxies show missing matter.
* Galaxy clusters also show missing matter.

You are totally correct and we DO agree on this matter, under the standard model there is missing mass, that's undeniable!

So what are we going to make up, as per standard model to make our maths work?

Just add Dark Matter!
Now you may be getting it Sol88. But you really need to learn about the Quote button.

You need to actually read the posts. That was me replying not Zig.


Dark matter was inferred by the observations of several physical properites:
  • Velocity dispersions of galaxies show missing matter.
  • Galaxy clusters also show missing matter.
  • The measured orbital velocities of galaxies within galactic clusters have been found to be consistent with dark matter observations
Now we have 2 (count them Sol88) actual observations of dark matter.

This is a fact that you consistently ignore.

I do not know what you mean by "tested" but the 2 actual observation are actual tests that show dark matter exists.
We almost agree.
The facts are that there are missing forces in the abbove 3 observations.
Scientists know that electromagnetic forces are not enough to account for the missing forces by 22 orders of magnetude. But you know this (try reading you own posts for a change). That leaves gravitational forces.
Therefore the 3 observations above are eviddence for the xistsence of dark matter.

And then there is the bit you ignored yet again:
Now we have 2 (count them Sol88) actual observations of dark matter.

This is a fact that you consistently ignore.

And then you ignored:
Your list contains a number of standard plasma physics facts.

One error
  • "99.999% of matter in the observable Universe is plasma" should read "99.999% of the visible matter in the observable Universe is plasma". This assumes that all the ionized gas that is actually observed is plasma - which is wrong but Sol88 cannot seem to understand that not all ionized gas is plasma.
You state "Plasma with an electric current flowing through it can “self” organize". What does this mean? If you mean that the plasma can form various shapes then that is obvious. The problem that I have is with the “self” bit. A plasma with an electric current flowing through is is under an external influence (to create the electric current). It is not organizing itself. It is being organized.


You may want to lie to us and remove "Plasma with an electric current flowing through it can
• Form very complex instabilities and behavior".
The whole point about cosmic plasma filaments is that they are plasmas with electric currents running through them and they are stable over billions of years.

You may want to lie to us and remove "12. Plasma exchanging energy is observable across the known Electromagnetic spectrum." because filaments matching the cosmic plasma filaments (paired, 35 kpc wide, 350 Mpc long, connecting galaxies) have never been observed. As a PC/EU proponent you will then want them to be invisible.

Charge separation does occur in astrophysical plasma if there is an external force causing the charges to be separated.
Charges are "separated" by definition in a plasma (electrons are separated from ions). Charge separation as in double layers does not happen spontaneously in astrophysical plasmas.

Thank you Sol88 for yet another bit of evidence against PC/EU:
You state this fact : Plasma with an electric current flowing through it can form very complex instabilities and behavior.
The whole point about cosmic plasma filaments is that they are plasmas with electric currents running through them and they are stable over billions of years.
You have just stated as a fact that cosmic plasma filaments form very complex instabilities. They cannot thus exist for the billoons of yuears that galaxies have been around and powered by them.
 
Zeuzz wrote

You can add our Moon, Jupiters moons, Saturn's moons and comets to that as well.

But as as you said they will most probably say they are insignificant and unrelated phenomena!!

And that's just OUR solar system!

And like what has been told to you, these are interactions of solids with plasmas and not just plasmas. Lots of different stuff, even more complicated than plasma processes, can happen. That would be wayyyyyy to difficult for Sol88 and Zeuzzz to understand, so let's remain with plasmas shall we?

QUESTION:
What is the force that keeps a star running around the centre of the galaxy in the PU? Can either Sol88 or Zeuzzz calculate that for me? Just a simple question that I am sure the PU community has already solved. So, what kind of magnetic fields, what kind of currents, what kind of charges are necessary to keep our sun rotating around the centre of our galaxy?
 
3 questions

First to Tim Thompson

Can charge separation occur in astrophysical plasmas?

Tusenfem

Please explain to the posters in this thread what a Buneman instability is and does?

Reality check
The conclusion was that PC is no woo. It is non-science.

Are you saying plasma physics is a non science?
 
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Tusenfem wrote:
And like what has been told to you, these are interactions of solids with plasmas and not just plasmas. Lots of different stuff, even more complicated than plasma processes, can happen. That would be wayyyyyy to difficult for Sol88 and Zeuzzz to understand, so let's remain with plasmas shall we?

Stick a magnetic field in the way then i.e. a magnetosphere for instance, what happens?

I think your patronizing tone here is kinda funky, EU/PC proponents understand just how complex, interlinked and dynamic plasma can be compared to gravity, which is ONLY an attractive force unless ad hoc admissions are added, like Dark energy!

The beauty of EU/PC is then we are all connected via electromagnetism/plasma unlike gravity in wich everything is independent from everything else!

Lots of different stuff, even more complicated than plasma processes, can happen. That would be wayyyyyy to difficult for Sol88 and Zeuzzz to understand

Try me!!!!
 
Tusenfem
What is the force that keeps a star running around the centre of the galaxy in the PU?

There are two forces at work here Tusenfem

Electromagnetic and gravity!

EU/PC does not exclude gravity unlike mainstream that does exclude EM forces on the macroscopic scale!
Question Charge separation in space is not possible'
Well, this is the mainstream view. Because the attractive electrical forces between electrons and ions are 39 orders of magnitude greater than the gravitational attraction between their masses, it is assumed that these particles quickly find each other and neutralise.
link

Question Can Plasma Cosmology live with the Big Bang?

Surprisingly, yes. The Big Bang does not necessarily preclude the importance of Plasma and its electrodynamic properties. Even within conventional Big Bang cosmology, the entire early universe consisted of plasma before recombination (the process in which electrons become confined to protons to make neutral atoms) occurred. However, it should be noted that most scientists and engineers in the Plasma field prefer an actualistic approach to science -- the method of working backwards from observation, rather than starting out at idealised theoretical principals.

The Big Bang fails to account for the 'clumpiness' of the universe and the filamentary structures that we see. These are consistent with Plasma models.
LINK

And the EU/PC guru Hannes Alfvén remarked
Our local gravitational system is the “ashes” of a prior electrical system.
because it would seems more than reasonable to say

until such time as charges have been neutralized, at which point gravity becomes the dominant force to consider (as it is on Earth, which is in the vast minority of matter in the non-plasma states of solids, liquids and non-ionized gases)

LINK
 
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Reality check

Are you saying plasma physics is a non science?
No. Plasma physics is standard science.

Just to remind everyone that the question that this thread was started with has been answered:
The "plasma cosmology" supported by Zeuzzz, BeAChooser and others is definitely a nonscientific, crackpot theory (not woo).

The scientific theory of Plasma Cosmology is that of Hannes Olof Gösta Alfvén. This was expanded upon by Anthony Peratt, especially in the area of galaxy formation.

But the "plasma cosmology" that has emerged in this thread is not Plasma Cosmology and is not a scientific theory. Since it's proponents claim that it is a scientific theory that makes it crackpottery.

The definition of "plasma cosmology"is that it is a collection of scientific theories (not one consistent scientific theory) with a common thread. This thread seems to be that the theory either emphasizes the contribution of plasma in the universe or is a steady state cosmological theory.


This collection allows the addition of any new theory that matches the criteria regardless of consistency with existing theories in the collection. Thus the collection allows:
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on cosmological redshift.
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on the cosmic microwave background.
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on the structure of the universe.
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on stellar formation.
  • Multiple inconsistent theories on anything else that is contained in "plasma cosmology"
The PC collection includes:
There seems to be an emphasis on the extension of laboratory experiments in theory to large sizes via plasma scaling (ignoring the problems with this - see the Astrophysical application section). The observational evidence for this scaling has some gaps in it.

pc completely forgets about the laboratory experiments on gravity that can be scaled in theory without any problems to cosmic scales. The observational evidence for this scaling has some gaps in it.

Of course many of the mutually inconsistent theories included in pc are wrong, e.g.
  • Peratt's plasma model of galaxy formation - he neglects gravity, no evidence of billions of pairs of galactic sized plasma filaments, etc.
  • Coherent Raman Effect on incoherent light - redshift of host galaxies = redshift of quasar.
  • Errors in Tired Light Cosmology.
And then there is the inability of these theories to actually match observations, e.g. a CMB that has a perfect black body thermal spectrum.
 
The beauty of EU/PC is then we are all connected via electromagnetism/plasma unlike gravity in wich everything is independent from everything else!
I just have to comment on this bit of stupidity.
Gravity is in fact a better "connector" than electromagnetism/plasma."
Gravity is always attractive. It is always a force with an unlimited range.
Electromagnetism is attractive or positive.
 
Ok lets have another go and focus just for the time being on Birkeland currents(FAC's), Double layers and Plasmoids!

Because we do have an expert here with us Tusenfem, he even has a few papers out WRT plasma.


We need to take baby steps for some of the members here, so lets ask a general question first to stop any misconception.

Is it commonly believed that a black hole is at the center of our galaxy?

WE have been down this road as well:

You can suggest a Lerner Plasmoid is at the heart of the galaxy, fine.


However we know it has a lower bound of a huge mass, like 30,000,000 stellar masses and that it has an upper bound an how large it is , something like 1 AU.

So how does it avoid gravitational collapse.
 
Sol Invictus wrote:

So we can all more or less agree on the BH at the center of the milky way and most probably most others as well.

So how do we know they are BH's of all the different varieties of black holes, if we can not see them.

For simplicity will just use the SMBH at our center as some sort of standard model.

Well one way astronomer use is observation, from Wiki's BH page
Note worthy to mention that jets have been observed from a brown dwarf as well. Another object that mainstream dare not mention are plasmoids and dense plasma focus.


Lets for now not concern our self with abstract math and just "look" at some pretty pictures

First from the wiki BH article

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ab/Black_hole_jet_diagram.jpg/300px-Black_hole_jet_diagram.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black_hole_jet_diagram.jpg[/qimg]

And then E.Lerner's plasmoid

[qimg]http://www.holoscience.com/news/img/Galactic%20Center%20Plasmoid.jpg[/qimg] Source

That torus I believe is what mainstream call an event horizon!



SOURCE

and the a real plasmoid in the center of our galaxy

[qimg]http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2002/gradioarc/gradioarc_radio.jpg[/qimg] Image courtesy chandra.harvard.edu

And when a Beam (electron or Ion) passes thru plasma something called Buneman instability arises from the very fact Ions are 1836 times more massive than the electron. This sets up all sorts of wonderful plasma effects, like double layers, charge separation, charge equalization channels (FAC's) and lots of funky electromagnetic effects .i.e. radio wave, visual waves, UV , Xray and gamma ray in fact the entire observational spectrum!

Which much to Tim's disgust, of haven't got the maths skills needed to "prove" this effect, though the maths is out there if that's what you need to believe in.


So there may be jets from a number of possible sources.

What keeps the Lerner Plasmoid from collapsing, under the action of gravity?
 
Apologies Zig. Reality check wrote:

*Velocity dispersions of galaxies show missing matter.
* Galaxy clusters also show missing matter.

You are totally correct and we DO agree on this matter, under the standard model there is missing mass, that's undeniable!

So what are we going to make up, as per standard model to make our maths work?



Just add Dark Matter!


Um, considering that you haven't shown that the PC/EU model can explain it,

1. What theory in the PC/EU model explains the rotation curves of galaxies?
2. What predictions does the model make?
3. What data match the predictions.

So far your Perrat model did not do it.

(Remember it was nuetral hydrogen, not stars?)
 
Tusenfem

Please explain to the posters in this thread what a Buneman instability is and does?

For all readers

The Buneman instability:
This instability is closely related to the two-stream instability and is actually the electron-ion two stream instability. It arises from current flow across an unmagnetized plasma and can also be treated in the fluid picture. Currents are associated with the relative flow of electrons and ions.

To make it simple:
For the Buneman instability one considers the contribution of the motionless ions to the two-stream instability. Assuming that all plasma components are cold, the dispersion relation can be written as:

ε(ω,k) = 1 - (ωpi2 / ω2) - (ωpe2 / (ω - k v0)2) = 0

Here the ions take over the position of the motionless component, while all the electrons are assumed to stream across the ion fluid at their bulk velocity v0. Clearly this will cause a current to flow in the plasma. Becaue the ion plasma frequency is much smaller than the electron plasma frequency the dominating term is the electron term. Instability will arise at the slow negative energy mode

ωn ≈ k v0 - ωpe

while the positive energy wave ωp ≈ k v0 + ωpe does not couple to the instability. One can thus rewrite the above relationship as

(ω - ωn) ω2 = ωpi2 (ω - k v0)2 / (ω - ωp)

The wavenumber of interest is k ≈ ωpe / v0, because for a two-stream instability this wavenumber couples to the negative energy wave. In contrast to the electron two-stream instability, the frequency is small compared to the electron plasma frequency, ω << ωpe. With these approximations the dispersion relation becomes

ω3 ≈ - (me/2 mi) ωpe3
Of the three roots of the equation one is a real negative frequency wave

ω ≈ - (me/2 mi)1/3 ωpe

The other two are complex conjugate, and one of them has positive imaginary part. To find these two solutions we put ω -> ω + i γ to obtain the following two equations

ω(ω2 - 3 γ2) = - (me ωpe3) / 2 mi
γ2 = 3 ω2
The second equation gives γ = +/- 31/2 ω. Inserting into the first equation yields for the frequency of the maximum unstable Buneman mode

ωbun = (me / 16 mi)1/3 ωpe ≈ 0.03 ωpe

from which the growth rate is found to be

γbun = (3 me / 16 mi)1/3 ωpe ≈ 0.05 ωpe

This growth rate is very large, of the order of the frequency itself. Hence, the Buneman instability is a strong instability driven by the fast bulk motion of all the electrons movins across the plasma. Onc can expect that this instability will cause violent effects on the current flow, retarding the current and feeding its energy into heating of the plasma. It is interesting to note that the Buneman two-stream waves propagate ralallel to the current flow but otherwise are electrostatic waves.

Basically the condition for instability is found to be

k2 v02 < ωpe2 [ 1 + (me / mi)1/3 ]3
which justifies our first choice of the unstable wave number showing in addition that any sufficiently long wavelength will become unstable against the electron flow.

(I just could not help myself)
Okay, thank you Rudolf for your help.

Basically, the criterion can be taken that as soon as the bulk velocity of the electrons exceeds the thermal velocity of the electrons (which did not exist in the above analysis, as that was for a cold plasma) this mode becomes unstable.
 
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Tusenfem

There are two forces at work here Tusenfem

Electromagnetic and gravity!

[snip]

And, humour me, and write down the forces (the EM force is supposed to be ten-to-the-umpteenth stronger than gravity).
 
Tusenfem

There are two forces at work here Tusenfem

Electromagnetic and gravity!

Care to elaborate by presenting what you would project to be the magnitudes of the fields involved as well as their sorces?

EU/PC does not exclude gravity unlike mainstream that does exclude EM forces on the macroscopic scale! link

Excluded how, by having entire industries and fields devoted to the study and use of “EM forces on the macroscopic scale”?


LINK

And the EU/PC guru Hannes Alfvén remarked

Our local gravitational system is the “ashes” of a prior electrical system.

Care to show us those ashes, if you can find them. You should be aware that “gravitational systems” come with their own driving forces resulting from, well, gravity (that is why it is called a gravitational system). I think the only “ashes” you will find is the notion of a “prior electrical system” simply electrocuting itself.

because it would seems more than reasonable to say

until such time as charges have been neutralized, at which point gravity becomes the dominant force to consider (as it is on Earth, which is in the vast minority of matter in the non-plasma states of solids, liquids and non-ionized gases)

Things are not always as one might like them to seem and actually it would be more reasonable for one to explain why charges are not neutralized in something as highly conductive as plasma.
 
Magic vs Physics

First to Tim Thompson
Can charge separation occur in astrophysical plasmas?
I already answered that question.

I'm sure that Tim will say that it does, but thats its "insignificant" in some way.
I have yet to see anyone post here, or publish in any paper, any serious reason to think otherwise.

It is well known that the solid earth is charged up to millions of coulombs, such that there is an atmospheric voltage potential of something like 300,000 Volts ... How is this large charge separation and voltage maintained? ... Unless someone can answer this basic question about charge separation so close home (in an evironment that is infact a very weak plasma), I see no reason why anyone can dismiss any occurence of substantially large charge separation occuring elsewhere in space.
This has already been told to you, Zeuzzz, the atmosphere is a very poor conductor (not a plasma at all not even a weak one) and therefore discharges can only happen in extreme situations like thunderstorms. .... In the universe, however, the medium is full plasma, with all charges highly mobile, and thus charge separation can only remain under very specific conditions.
The example of a large potential on Earth is completely irrelevant. We are talking about cosmological scales and nobody disputes extensive small scale charge separation in astrophysics. That said, it is an interesting topic in its own right, and detailed answers to your questions are already in print. Harrison, 2004 is the only fairly recent review of the global electric circuit I know of that is freely accessible via the arXiv server, but you can also seek out Rycroft, et al., 2008; Rycroft, at al., 2007 & Singh, et al., 2007 for more recent reviews. There is a good outline of the basic physics in The Feynman Lectures on Physics, volume II, chapter 9.

TEU/PC does not exclude gravity unlike mainstream that does exclude EM forces on the macroscopic scale!
That is absolutely untrue. It is so common, and so insulting, to rant & rave about how the standard cosmology is all wrong, while at the same time remaining willfully & deliberately ignorant of what it actually is. By no stretch of the imagination does mainstream cosmology exclude electromagnetic forces on any scale, macroscopic or otherwise. They simply understand better the relationship between the two.

The EU & PC models arbitrarily assume, with no basis in physics, that electromagnetic forces always dominate over gravity, even to the extent of steering stars around a galaxy, or powering stars with electric currents known not to exist. In short, the EU/PC models rely on magic, whereas the mainstream relies on physics. That's why EU/PC enthusiasts never respond to specific questions with specific answers. Show us relevant physics, or admit that you just don't have any to show; pick one or the other and do it.
 
This post of Z's, and the one not long after it, contain variants of two persistent myths from the EU corpus; namely, that Arp has really demonstrated something important with all his quasar-galaxy alignments and 'on-the-sky' proximities, and that CDM observations are blatant examples of "false a posteriori statistics" (to quote Z) or "curve fitting" (to quote MM), or ... (basically just some sort of mathematical jiggery pokery).

This post of Z's also reveals a profound ignorance of astronomy, and (most likely) deep confusion over the nature of science (or at least their non-social branches).

In this post and one or two subsequent ones, I intend to address these two persistent EU myths, and also take a stab at explaining to disinterested readers some basics of astronomy, as a science, and in particular what the nature of astronomical 'observations' is.

It has not been observed. It has been implied based on the assumption that gravity is the only force at work.

You go on and on about dark matter being directly "observed" in the case of the Bullet Cluster ... even though there are a host of gnomes and assumption based calculations implicit in that so-called observation. Yet, the 2003 discovery of a high redshift (z = 2.11) quasar that is visually (in ordinary light) between us and the dense core of a low redshift (z = 0.022) galaxy, NGC 7319, is just dismissed out of hand as being "statistically insignificant", along with all of Arps other observations. Where he has documented well over thirty similar cases, probably even more.

And you expect us to take you mere two "observations" of dark matter as some sort of definitive proof of its existance? Arp goes and looks (and finds) much more evidence to back up his previous observations and they are all dismissed 'statistically', well I put it to you when astronomers have gone looking for specific cases that prove their Dark Gnomes and come up with the observations you always refer to as 'proof of Dark Matter, it is a blantent textbook case of false a posteriori statistics.

[...]
Without further ado then, lies, damned lies, and a posteriori statistics, all in the name of CDM (Cold Dark Matter).

I started a JREF Forum thread on CDM nearly a year ago, it is entitled "Non-baryonic cold dark matter ("CDM"), the observational evidence", and currently has 162 posts. Several JREF Forum members asked questions (and more), including Wrangler and robinson; in addition, Z come in early and posted a lot of stuff that was pretty obviously intended to derail the thread, and made it very clear he had not actually read any of the material in it.

I would urge any reader interested in actually understanding what the observational evidence for CDM is to read that thread, and if you find any of your questions about that evidence are not answered, please post them there and I will try to answer them.

And rather than simply copy tens of thousands of words from that thread, I'll just quote a few of the key points I made there that are of direct relevance to the persistent EU myth Z has repeated.

From post#8: "Finally, do not expect a nice, simple, 'try this at home' explanation [re observational evidence of CDM]; just like the observational basis for SgrA* (the nucleus of the Milky Way) being a super-massive black hole, the observational basis for CDM is a rich, intricately-connected web of millions of observations and very large parts of standard physics textbooks. Depending on what you consider 'really good evidence' to be, you might have to convince yourself of almost all of standard astronomy and astrophysics first, before you could even begin to appreciate the evidence for CDM."

Or, in the words of BenBurch (in post#6): "Basically, the evidence for CDM is just as good or better than the evidence for many other things we see out in the cosmos."

In post#7 there are two points that I think are directly relevant:

"Using textbook physics, these [spiral galaxy rotation] curves can be interpreted to mean that the mass 'closer in' to the centre of the galaxy (than at any radius) keeps increasing as the radius increases. In fact, no other standard physics textbook interpretation has been proposed, that is also consistent with all the relevant observations."

AND

"Somewhat in contrast to rotation curves of spiral galaxies, interpretation of the observations using the other techniques I've briefly mentioned^ does not have to lead to firm conclusions about mass differences ... however, as far as I know, no alternative explanations (based on standard, textbook physics) have been proposed that are also consistent with the 'lensing' observations I will cover next."

Now both these comments apply to galaxies, and largely to spiral galaxies.

However, they are just as applicable to galaxy clusters, in the sense that there are multiple types of observations which yield consistent results. Further, as the observations rely upon quite different physical processes (or mechanisms, if you prefer), it would be remarkable that they give consistent results if there was no such thing as CDM.

And to foreshadow something I'll go into more detail on in a later post, the astronomical (astrophysics, etc) community would be utterly delighted if someone could come up with an alternative explanation that fitted - quantitatively - the totality of 'the CDM observations' at least as well as the CDM idea, and was also consistent with all relevant parts of standard physics.

That's how science, and scientists, works; if it were a marriage, then there'd be a divorce every time a more attractive mate came in sight.

^ in a nutshell, that the mass of the galaxies, out to the distance probed by the objects observed, is considerably greater than the (baryonic) mass estimates derived from analysis of 'light' in terms of specific populations of objects (e.g. stars, dust).
 
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Astronomical observations

This is the second post of mine addressing two persistent EU myths - one about CDM and one about Arp and his 'observations' - and an examination of the nature of astronomical observations.

My first post dealt with CDM, in terms of the observational evidence for it.

This post will look at astronomical observations.

I am adapting what I wrote in the Alternatives: Cosmological redshift/BBE thread, in post #82, together with a post in the Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not? thread, post #1871.

With our eyes - unaided by telescopes, glasses, etc - we can see, on a dark cloudless night, twinkling points of light and fuzzy patches of light (and the Moon); technically, "point sources" and "extended sources". With telescopes and better detectors than our eyes, we can see that some of the point sources can be "resolved", into lots of other point sources and/or extended sources. With various detectors, we can extend the range of wavelengths we can 'see', through telescopes here on the surface of the Earth, from the UV (~300 nm) through to the IR (~1 µ), with small windows at longer wavelengths in the IR.

Well over a century ago a simple explanation for the sources of light in the night sky which moved, relative to the others, over periods of minutes to hours to (sometimes) days was accepted - they are bodies in motion within the solar system: planets, dwarf planets, satellites/moons, comets, asteroids, TNOs, ... Two kinds of extended source are included: zodiacal light and gegenschein.

When radio 'telescopes' were turned to the sky, and when 'telescopes' tuned to other parts of the electromagnetic (EM) spectrum - from TeV gammas to x-rays to UV and IR that the atmosphere blocked - started observing above the atmosphere, point sources and extended sources were also found, and once again solar system sources (objects) could be easily distinguished from all other sources.

Of course, the sky looks quite different in other parts of EM spectrum than it does in the visual (or optical) waveband, but otherwise ...

... well, not quite. In the gamma region (and to a lesser extent the hard x-ray), the sky is dominated by flashes, sometimes intensely bright bursts that last mere milliseconds to perhaps a second or two, and it took many years before these could be shown to be sources way, way beyond the solar system. In the radio region, some point sources are periodic flashes, of such extreme perfection that they are more accurate than even the most expensive of wrist watches (of course there are periodic variables - point sources - in the visual waveband too, but these pulsars - as they were quickly called - are qualitatively different).

The superb pattern-detection machine that is the human brain sorted all the non-solar system sources into neat boxes, based on the characteristics of the sources: stars, galaxies, planetary nebulae (PNe), GRBs, quasars, pulsars, and so on. The important thing to note about these classifications is that they are made on the basis of criteria such as whether they are point sources or not, how bright they are in one waveband vs another (e.g. 'quasar' originally meant 'quasi-stellar radio source'), the type of time-variability they exhibit, their shape and key features in their spectra (e.g. galaxies vs PNe), and so on.

Of course, humans being what they are, simply having a nice label for something - 'star', for example - is not enough; we want to what these things 'really' are!

And as physics developed - from Newton to Maxwell to Einstein to the founders of quantum mechanics to ... - once a really good answer to 'what X really is' was to hand, the purely empirical meaning of a classification came to take on aspects of the explanation, to the point where distinguishing between pure description (features of what is observed) and explanation (what we conclude it 'really is') is often blurred and sometimes difficult to do. For example 'pulsar' is BOTH {insert description, to do with radio flashes} AND a neutron star {insert qualifiers about the radio flashes and their observability}.

The classification of 'things we see in the sky' is critical to showing just how silly the persistent EU myth about quasars and redshift is, starting with the answer to the question of how astronomers can distinguish one source of redshift - in the spectrum of an astronomical object (source) - from another.

And classifications, and their bases, are also key to understanding why much of EU material is nonsense (or just plain wrong); for example, there is, very often, muddle-headedness and confusion over what 'a quasar' is (to take just one example), however, because few laypersons understand the bases of classifications (and, in general, the key role of consistent definitions in science), they are easily fooled by seemingly plausible strings of words.

And yeah, at times this can seem like pedantry gone mad, but it's very important that you, dear reader, grok this ... if only because getting your definitions clean and consistent, and using your terms consistently, etc is an important part of what doing science is all about. Again, this paramount need for clean and consistent definitions, the consistent use of terms, etc is often overlooked or ignored in much of the EU material Z et al. have presented, both here in this thread and in others.

(to be continued)
 
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