www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com - Volunteers Needed

[tkingdoll]

I think my comment was taken a wee bit more seriously than I intended it to be.

Oh no, I knew you were being 'winky' but I wanted to address it seriously for the benefit of those reading who may not know you and I have a banter relationship.

 

[Cuddles]

I should have realised that even constructive criticism might not be well met, though, the site does proclaim on the homepage that the author is "brilliant".

In all fairness to UncaYimmy, I believe that is a little joke. Anita initially praised UncaYimmy as being a brilliant skeptic because she thought he was agreeing with her, but later changed her mind when he explained that he was doing nothing of the sort.

 

[tkingdoll]

In all fairness to UncaYimmy, I believe that is a little joke. Anita initially praised UncaYimmy as being a brilliant skeptic because she thought he was agreeing with her, but later changed her mind when he explained that he was doing nothing of the sort.

In that case I retract my last sentence and apologise for taking it at face value, but (constructive as ever) would like to point out that without that particular anecdote in hand, others may do the same.

 

[Moochie]

Well, I finally decided to pull the trigger and put www.StopVisionFromFeeling.com on-line. I am looking for a few volunteer bloggers to write some articles to put up. They can be copies of things you have written here or new material.

I also created a discussion forum should folks decide to take their VFF discussions somewhere else seeing how one thread here was closed and another moved to moderated status. It looks like VFF 2 is probably headed that direction as well.

It seems that Anita Ikonen is just not going to let her claims drop. If anything she has recently sought even more attention for her unfounded claims. My website will be there ready to examine them objectively.

Bugger! I wish I had the talent to throw together a website that quickly.

Nicely done, UncaYimmy! And very proactive. I'll be sure to visit regularly.


M.

 

[Uncayimmy]

If you can't take polite and constructive criticism, I suggest not posting a thread in a public internet forum. I'm very sorry that you do seem to want to not hear anything you don't agree with. That's not too healthy in my opinion.

How cute! Now I get a lecture about posting on the Internet.

I thanked you for your specific comments about the content. However, I am not going to discuss specific content here. I'll read what people have to say, but if they want to discuss it, this is not the proper place.

I rebutted your comments about the effectiveness of the site by pointing out it does little good to close the barn door after the horses are gone. The time to make a StopThisWoo website is before the woo needs stopping.

Your comments about how I should be using my time are another story. I find it obnoxious to be lectured about how you think I could better use my time. Do you really need me to elaborate on this?

 

[plumjam]

I find it obnoxious to be lectured about how you think I could better use my time. Do you really need me to elaborate on this?

Supremely ironic, given that you've spent the last couple of months trying to convince Anita to stop doing something she likes to do in her own free time.

 

[Uncayimmy]

The world outside this forum hasn't heard of, and doesn't care about, Vision from Feeling, so the outcome can never be productive.

* She has posted on other skeptic websites besides this one.
* She has had an application pending at IIG West for 20 months and has been noted in several of their newsletters.
* She has been to several meetings of a local skeptics group and has posted on Meetup.com.
* She has phoned and/or written the owners of a local mall about running a "study" on their premises.
* She has phoned and.or written local park officials about running a "study" in a park.
* She has been in touch with city officials about doing a "study" on the city sidewalks.
* She has contacted several professors at her school.
* She has contacted one professor about using students in her "study."
* She has read over 100 people.
* Her website guestbook has entries from other woos including www.thedoctorandthepsychic.com

And as far as this board goes, threads related to her claim keep getting moderated (the first one was closed). Meanwhile, she keeps writing more and more on her website.

 

[Moochie]

Besides the fact that your analysis is completely off base and simply wrong, it doesn't really matter - people are free to create websites to debunk woos just as the woos are free to create websites to promote their own powers. In fact this works in "VisionFromFeeling"s favor because some people will choose to perform the forum role of "valiant defender" and get support they would not otherwise get. In fact, its already in progress.

Claiming you can "see" peoples medical problems through a power is a danger to the public. This isn't someone who claims to speak to ghosts or do something else that doesn't hurt anyone except themselves. And yes, there are plenty of people who fall for this kind of woo and later die or get seriously injured:
http://whatstheharm.net



In this case, VFF has decided to reveal just about everything about herself in order to promote her own website and abilities. Things would be completely different if someone had looked up all this information and the person had not volunteered all of it. This person could have just come on and revealed nothing, the decision to self-promote was hers and hers alone. If someone chooses to promote themselves like this then all that information is fair game, and the university is free to ignore letters regarding her mental health.

Stop trying to turn this person into a victim and throw a pity party. Throwing out baseless accusations does you no good. The only bullies here are the people acting hysterical and trying to shut down someone else's freedom of speech. Don't like the website? Don't go to it. Its a perfectly valid venture and no amount of making things up is going to change that.

Entirely agree. If it were the case that VfF didn't have that preposterous site of hers, then I'd have reservations about UY's action, but as things stand, his site is a very valid response to the woo.

I still don't know what VfF's intentions are, but her site, as it stands, looks like a perfect precursor to a career in woo.


M.

 

[tkingdoll]

Your comments about how I should be using my time are another story. I find it obnoxious to be lectured about how you think I could better use my time. Do you really need me to elaborate on this?

Sigh, I don't think you've read my subsequent posts. I was pretty sure I'd addressed this.

If you think my few short paragraphs are a lecture, what would you call what you're doing to Anita?

• You are allowed to start an entire site criticising and attempting to silence someone you disagree with. To do so is worthwhile and will help society by 'stopping woo before it starts'.
• I am not allowed to offer an opinion or criticise the site on this forum. To do so is lecturing.

Hmm.

Quick question: why do the threads here keep getting moderated?

 

[Uncayimmy]

In all fairness to UncaYimmy, I believe that is a little joke. Anita initially praised UncaYimmy as being a brilliant skeptic because she thought he was agreeing with her, but later changed her mind when he explained that he was doing nothing of the sort.

That is correct.

And the word "eventually" is a little joke about Anita's use of that word.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

plumjam, thank you.

Claiming you can "see" peoples medical problems through a power is a danger to the public. This isn't someone who claims to speak to ghosts or do something else that doesn't hurt anyone except themselves. And yes, there are plenty of people who fall for this kind of woo and later die or get seriously injured:
http://whatstheharm.net

I make the claim, yes, while also emphasizing that the claim has not been proven yet and that of course perhaps it never will if the investigation will conclude against it. However there is no danger to the public. I never diagnose a person other than close family or friends, and I take great care even then. I am quite responsible with how I express, and mostly not express, what I perceive about people's health, knowing that regardless of how vivid, realistic, or even seemingly accurate they may seem I must always assume the possibility that they are not, as well as abide by the conduct that I know is appropriate for someone who experiences what I do. I do not diagnose people. The persons who will volunteer in my study and test will fill in anonymous health questionnaires, and will never find out what I perceived about them. There is no danger involved, and I go through great lengths to ensure just that. Thank you for expressing this concern, although it does not apply to me in my case.

In this case, VFF has decided to reveal just about everything about herself in order to promote her own website and abilities. Things would be completely different if someone had looked up all this information and the person had not volunteered all of it. This person could have just come on and revealed nothing, the decision to self-promote was hers and hers alone. If someone chooses to promote themselves like this then all that information is fair game, and the university is free to ignore letters regarding her mental health.

I chose to make my entire investigation public, because in order to investigate a paranormal claim it would end up involving Skeptics and draw some attention to it anyway. And I thought that a paranormal investigation, when done thoroughly, could be very interesting to many. There are not many honest attempts made by paranormal claimants who decide to put their claimed experience to the test to answer questions or to allow others insight into their experience, and their main objective appears to most of the time be "the million dollar prize" or other selfish greed. My objective is a scientific inquiry into my experience of correlating medical perceptions. My website serves as an open and interactive documentary into the experience as a paranormal claimant working toward the final conclusion about my medical perceptions.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Sigh, I don't think you've read my subsequent posts. I was pretty sure I'd addressed this.

If you think my few short paragraphs are a lecture, what would you call what you're doing to Anita?

• You are allowed to start an entire site criticising and attempting to silence someone you disagree with. To do so is worthwhile and will help society by 'stopping woo before it starts'.
• I am not allowed to offer an opinion or criticise the site on this forum. To do so is lecturing.

Hmm.

Please tell me how my website could possibly "silence" her or anyone else. And considering that I have a link back to her site *and* I publicly invited her to register on the site, why are you even making such an implication?

As for stopping woo "before" it starts, it has already started. It has become very clear that she is reaching out to new audiences and introducing new psychic claims. She's begun connecting with other woos. Her website has probably tripled in size since she started here. That's not including the tens of thousands of words she has posted in several threads. When a recent thread of hers got moderated and slowed way down, she started a new thread to keep things going. She's the one going to a local skeptics group and claiming that their tests did not "falsify" her claim.

I never said your comments about my website were lecturing. I said your comments about my personal choice over the use of my time is lecturing. You, of course, are welcome to make those comments just as I am welcome to call it lecturing. Stop being so dramatic.

 

[Akhenaten]

[qimg]http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Portals/21/VFFChalkboard.jpg[/qimg]

I just really dislike that image. I've just woken up, so maybe my sense of humour isn't functioning properly yet.

Mine is and I think it's funny that you would link to an image that you dislike on a site where it will have far more views.

 

[tkingdoll]

Please tell me how my website could possibly "silence" her or anyone else. And considering that I have a link back to her site *and* I publicly invited her to register on the site, why are you even making such an implication?

As for stopping woo "before" it starts, it has already started. It has become very clear that she is reaching out to new audiences and introducing new psychic claims. She's begun connecting with other woos. Her website has probably tripled in size since she started here. That's not including the tens of thousands of words she has posted in several threads. When a recent thread of hers got moderated and slowed way down, she started a new thread to keep things going. She's the one going to a local skeptics group and claiming that their tests did not "falsify" her claim.

I never said your comments about my website were lecturing. I said your comments about my personal choice over the use of my time is lecturing. You, of course, are welcome to make those comments just as I am welcome to call it lecturing. Stop being so dramatic.

What an odd reply. A little perspective, perhaps? I've posted a couple of comments, you've made an entire site to 'stop' someone you don't agree with (although apparently, stopping them is not the same as silencing them, and this sentence from your site "Far too many people like Anita Ikonen are allowed to spew their half-baked ideas." in no way suggests you would like her to not be allowed to voice her ideas, as that would be silencing her when you merely intend to stop her) and I'm apparently the dramatic one.

If you're claiming your site cannot possibly stop her, what is the objective, please?

As for "stopping woo before it starts", that was your claim.

The time to make a StopThisWoo website is before the woo needs stopping.

Also, you didn't answer my question about why the other threads became moderated.

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

If you have any evidence that Anita has intervened in anyone's life, in a way which has adversely affected that person's health, then please present it.
If you cannot do this then you'd be wise to admit that all you're doing is fearmongering. Fearmongering in order to create a base of justification for indulgence in personal attack.

Heavens, how right you are.

There you go again making things up. You want proof? Visit her own website, where it clearly shows she is engaged in "reading" people and telling them what she thinks is their medical problems. Don't think there are people dumb enough to take it seriously?

The persons I've read on my MedicalPerceptions Page are exclusively close friends and Skeptics of the local Skeptics Group. Please read more closely to avoid making future unfounded negative accusations against me. I think you'll be surprised at how carefully and responsibly I am conducting my investigation.

The only serial ridicule and bullying I'm seeing is coming from you, not anyone else.

Hah! This is such a beautiful example of how silly some Forum Skeptics are! And I know that everyone reading this thread, who isn't a silly Forum Skeptic themselves, will see this.

If I volunteered myself as having special powers which could harm people AND I publicly posted all the information about me through the promotion of my own website about said power then people would be free to use the information in whatever (legal) way they want. But wait, I don't - do I? Completely invalid comparision.

But that is not what plumjam (and I) are objecting against. Please learn to read more carefully, because a good Skeptic is supposed to have exquisite reading skill.

Your denial of the facts does not make them not exist. Yep, if I claimed to have special powers which can harm people and I freely gave out my contact information in order to support said powers it would be perfectly normal for anyone to use it in whatever legal way they see fit. You thought wrong, as usual.

LightinDarkness, I am a Chemistry major at college, and often at times I have access to some very seriously dangerous chemicals for our chemistry experiments, but I have always made myself aware of the potential harms, and not once have I been responsible for causing injury to others in the lab or placing others at risk. In fact I am the one going around the lab urging other students to wear gloves or to pour carefully.

Claimed to have a special paranormal power where they give people "readings" that tell them medical ailments without the use of medical instruments and the person is not a licensed medical professional.

I claim to experience correlating medical perceptions, however I do not tell people what I perceive about their health. I am carefully investigating this in ways that ensure no harm to anyone who is part of the investigations.

Made a website for the promotion of this claim, and decided to put your contact information on said website.

The website is an open documentary about my experience as a paranormal claimant. It is not to promote *my psychic powers*, and it clearly states that all it is about is to find out what the medical perceptions are. The only contact information I have provided on my website is an e-mail address, that isn't even in my own name (brightstar).

Registered on a forum and repeatedly promoted the above website.

I am here on the JREF Forum to involve Skeptics in the investigation. I thought that was what a paranormal claimant is meant to do.

Would you please present your evidence that diagnosing people of medical problems without medical instruments and without a license is not harmful?

Again, I have been in a chemistry lab with access to concentrated Hydrochloric acid (otherwise known as stomach acid) with the potential to dissolve human flesh and there have been plenty of people around, yet I have never had the impulse to throw the acid on a person. Oh, I've also been around knives. And ran with scissors. I am a responsible adult and professional career woman and will be dealing with plenty of potentially hazardous material in my line of work, yet there is no reason to suspect me of being not responsible. The main reason I am going toward a career in the medical field is because I love to take care of people. Your concerns are unfounded in my case.

Its too bad the police weren't notified before so many people died of woo like this, which you keep ignoring because you are completely wrong and you know it

And again, I will be dealing with plenty of harmful chemicals as well as radiation in my professional career but there is no implication that validates suspicion of a tendency for me to cause harm to others. Oh, and there are knives in my kitchen, and a very hot curling iron with which I sometimes burn my forehead. Oh, and I've ran with scissors.

How many people would like to have murdered by those practicing "alternative medicine" like this?

Yes Honeybunches, but I don't practice medical perceptions to people. I am just investigating it.

But I guess you are OK with the murder of 276 people because, you know, we should let the woos try out their "powers" on people and wait for someone dumb enough to take them seriously before stopping it. You would much prefer we wait for someone to jump into a bathtub of acid before determining if its harmful.

Just because I possess a potentially harmful thing doesn't mean that I am the kind of person who will cause harm by it. There are so many Chemists in the world, none of whom cause harm to others with the chemicals. Chemists have access to potentially very harmful material that others don't, and yes I have in my hands a potentially harmful experience of medical perceptions that others don't, but it's not about what you have. We all have potential weapons at home, or could make some. It's about who we are and how responsible and careful we are with what we have.

 

[desertgal]

If you're claiming your site cannot possibly stop her, what is the objective, please?

The same as it is at StopSylvia - to establish facts over fiction. I doubt Robert Lancaster really expects that his site will ever fully "stop" or silence Sylvia Browne, but it has allowed people the opportunity to take proven facts and contradictions into consideration, as opposed to her unproven spin.

There's no harm in that, surely?

(Sorry, Unca, don't mean to step on your toes.)

 

[VisionFromFeeling]

I just really dislike that image. I've just woken up, so maybe my sense of humour isn't functioning properly yet.

No! I love that image!

 

[Uncayimmy]

What an odd reply. A little perspective, perhaps? I've posted a couple of comments, you've made an entire site to 'stop' someone you don't agree with (although apparently, stopping them is not the same as silencing them, and this sentence from your site "Far too many people like Anita Ikonen are allowed to spew their half-baked ideas." in no way suggests you would like her to not be allowed to voice her ideas, as that would be silencing her when you merely intend to stop her) and I'm apparently the dramatic one.

Please do not quote me out of context. My site reads, "Regardless, her extraordinary claims should be addressed by critical thinkers. Far too many people like Anita Ikonen (VisionFromFeeling) are allowed to spew their half-baked ideas [unchecked]. This site will serve to examine her claims with the impartial light of science."

I omitted the word unchecked when I first wrote it but have since corrected my omission.

If you're claiming your site cannot possibly stop her, what is the objective, please?

I hope to stop her from spreading pseudoscience and misinformation unchecked. I hope to stop her from turning her abilities into a fraudulent business like this fraud who is doing what Anita claims to be able to do.

As for "stopping woo before it starts", that was your claim.

Please don't twist my words again. I said the time to create a "stop" site is before the woo needs stopping. That is NOT the same thing as stopping woo before it starts. Lots of people are into woo, but that doesn't mean they need a "stop" site.

As Moochie pointed out, if she was just yacking here about her abilities, there would be nothing that needs stopping. That's not the case.

Also, you didn't answer my question about why the other threads became moderated.

If you want to discuss moderation issues, take it up in Forum Management. I am not going to guess why they are moderating her threads nor do I believe it is relevant.

 

[tkingdoll]

The same as it is at StopSylvia - to establish facts over fiction. I doubt Robert Lancaster really expects that his site will ever fully "stop" or silence Sylvia Browne, but it has allowed people the opportunity to take proven facts and contradictions into consideration, as opposed to her unproven spin.

There's no harm in that, surely?

I don't see any harm in it, no (unless you want to make the argument that it could be perceived as affiliated with JREF, but a simple disclaimer solves that), but I also don't think it's comparable with StopSylvia, in objective or approach. Robert's sites are not written for skeptics, as this seems to be.

Could you define "people" as per your quote above, as they relate to this new site? One of the main differences between Robert's efforts and this is Robert is very clear about who the site is aimed at and who those two individuals, Sylvia and Kaz, harm. The former, it's viewers of Montel, the families of people like Shawn Hornbeck, the people who give money for her readings or shows, those who buy her books, etc. The latter, it's those who attend her talks and donate money, the families of 911 victims, the viewers of the news shows and readers of newspapers which cover her story. There is demonstrable, tangible harm in the actions of those two people, backed up with testimony from victims. Is that also the case here?

 

[plumjam]

If you want to discuss moderation issues, take it up in Forum Management. I am not going to guess why they are moderating her threads nor do I believe it is relevant.

Since Yimmy either has me on ignore, or doesn't and simply won't respond, I think I'll have to play to the gallery instead.
Our dear Unca doesn't want to answer this question because he's well aware what the answer is and that it doesn't reflect well upon himself.
The VFF threads have had to be closed/moderated due to the unusually large number of unnecessary personal attacks directed towards the relatively polite and respectful Anita.

From the start Dear Unca has been the guiding light to a band of seriously unpleasant types who apparently cannot bear the prospect of someone perceiving the world differently to themselves.
But they needn't worry anymore.
Now that Unca has unleashed his website on an unsuspecting World, this group can rest assured that VisionFromFeeling will indeed be Stopped.com, and that we can hand on the reins to future generations with a happy heart.

Correct me if I'm wrong though, Jim.