Hardfire: Physics of 9/11

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So why don't you go to some of our engineering schools and ask them why they use so many "stupid little models" to teach physical principles in their physics classes.

I did mine at the Illinois Institute of Technology.

http://iar-ira.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/press/news_1_8_e.html

They still do models. There were models built of the WTC back in the 60s to do the wind tunnel testing.

psik
What you fail to show is how your model relates to the collapse (initiation) of the towers. You know, what NIST was tasked to study. Your video deserve a big "no [rule 10]". Every first year engineering student knows what you described. The question you can't answer is, "so what?" . Care to try (in another thread please, you've derailed this one enough)? What me to start it for you?

PS You could find the masses if you weren't so damn lazy.
 
bill continues his argument from incredulity

Whatever....this is only a detail that can be argued both ways. If the plane did not rotate then he wingtip effortlessly sliced through a few steel box columns which is equally unlkely. Are you going to comment on the shimmying ? Think of a tuning-fork when you do. Not a perfect analogy but definately an applicable one.

shimmying? again bill. you are ignoring inertia. How is the wall gonna "shimmy" while its connected to the floors? Its not a freakin shower curtain bill. You did not watch Ryan's presentation at all did you? if you did you completely ignored the math in the first video which shows that the fuel load alone can shear columns. CORE columns bill. thicker and more robust than perimeter columns.

http://911myths.com/images/f/f0/911physics_big.pdf
 
Most people, when they attempt to model a structure, start out with the design of the real structure.
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The difference with the supposed collapse of the WTC is that it violates too much basic physics for the details of the structure to matter. We are supposed to believe that the top 15% of a skyscraper which had to be less than 15% of the mass, because skyscrapers must be bottom heavy and get stronger toward the bottom, came straight down and destroyed the rest of the structure in less than double the free fall time from the top.

That would require breaking the supports of all of the intermediate masses and accelerating those masses faster than gravity would have to make them all come down within that time.

Going into details about that particular skyscraper is just useless intellectual busywork.

What matters is distribution of mass and the strength required to hold it up. My washer demonstration had constant strength all of the way down. The support at the bottom of a stack of 20 hard drives would have to be strong enough to hold all of the weight of the drives but I could allow the supports to get weaker going up so at least the distribution of strength could more closely resemble that of a skyscraper. I would have to weigh the drives to put heavier ones toward the bottom.

I don't buy this crap about the towers coming down because of the tube in tube design.

Why can't the EXPERTS demonstrate that something with a similar distribution of mass and strength to the WTC can collapse on itself in SEVEN YEARS? All we have is writing and talking and writing and talking but there are skyscrapers all over the world and the Empire State Building was completed 70 years before the WTC was destroyed. What kind of electronic computers did they have back then? Even the stuff from the early 60s when the WTC was designed is a joke compared to what we have today. So how has this simple problem not been solved? It should have been settled in less than a year.

psik
 
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The point of that video was to show that the mass and its distribution affected the behavior of a somewhat flexible vertical structure therefore that information should be necessary and available to analyze the WTC.

I showed here how distribution of mass altered the collapse times of 64 foot drops.

http://the911forum.freeforums.org/post2501.html#p2501

So we should have the tons of steel and tons of concrete on every level of the WTC from an official US government source in human readable form.

psik

The washer video was pretty jerky.
Your models show that mass distribution influence both swaying frequency and speed of collapse.

I am with you so far.

The problem comes when you draw conclutions from it.

You (or bill?) claim that the swaying from impact should have been obvius to the naked eye.
No, not enough swaying for that.

You claim that the collapse should/could have slowed down to a stop.
No, once it got moving there was no stopping it.
It would have taken something far stronger and more massive than the building to stop the drop, like the ground.


It looked like your washer model had a basic error.
The drop distance to first toothpick were higher than the distance between the rest of them. That means the tootpicks can be far too strong and you can still get the first few to break.
 
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The difference with the supposed collapse of the WTC is that it violates too much basic physics for the details of the structure to matter.

Please explain this (in another thread). The laws of physics in our (the real world) remained un-tarnished.

(Yes we're laughing at you not with you)
 
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Nobody cares where you went to school.

Lame appeal to authority and a goalpost move.
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You mean R. MacKey is a "lame appeal to AUTHORITY" with his NASA scientist title.

ROFLMAO

That is the funny thing about MacKey. Is he the only NASA scientist that can understand the Newtonian Physics of skyscrapers? Why aren't there LOTS of NASA scientists up there agreeing with him?

psik
 
shimmying? again bill. you are ignoring inertia. How is the wall gonna "shimmy" while its connected to the floors? Its not a freakin shower curtain bill. You did not watch Ryan's presentation at all did you? if you did you completely ignored the math in the first video which shows that the fuel load alone can shear columns. CORE columns bill. thicker and more robust than perimeter columns.

http://911myths.com/images/f/f0/911physics_big.pdf

Are you saying that the interconnected perimeter columns would not have picked up vibration from an airliner's impact with 33 of those columns that was so severe that it caused the 500,000 ton building to sway back and forth - vibration that would be seen ? No ripple effect ? No shimmy like an expression fleeting across somebodys face ?
 
bill smith the no planer, did you get your fantasy about the tower rippling from the scene in The Matrix where the helicopter crashes in the building?
 
Are you saying that the interconnected perimeter columns would not have picked up vibration from an airliner's impact with 33 of those columns that was so severe that it caused the 500,000 ton building to sway back and forth - vibration that would be seen ? No ripple effect ? No shimmy like an expression fleeting across somebodys face ?

again, one thousandth of a second per foot, VS thirty frames per second at BEST. figure it out genius.
 
bill smith the no planer, did you get your fantasy about the tower rippling from the scene in The Matrix where the helicopter crashes in the building?

You most likely know when a fat man slaps the side of his belly a shimmy runs across the rest. Visually that kind of shimmy.
 
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You most likely know when a fat man slaps the side of his belly a shimmy runs across the rest. Visually that kind of shimmy.

You pathetic and totally incorrect attempt at an insult is noted. Answer the question. Did you get your stupid fantasy about the tower shimmying from The Matrix?
 
You most likely know when a fat man slaps the side of his belly a shimmy runs across the rest. Visually that kind of shimmy.

OK. Have someone stand back 100 ft and see if they can see that "shimmy".

(What a loon.)
 
The problem comes when you draw conclutions from it.

You (or bill?) claim that the swaying from impact should have been obvius to the naked eye.
No, not enough swaying for that.
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WRONG! I said nothing of the kind!

I never claimed the swaying of the real WTC should have been visible to the naked eye.

The NIST says the south tower shifted 12 inches at the 70th floor which was 130 feet below the impact point. A linear extrapolation would give a 14 inch deflection at the impact level.

The WTC was supposed to sway 3 feet at the top in a 150 mph wind. So that is only 1.5% of the 200 foot width of the building. My tower sways more than 100% I had to do a lot of tweaking of the design to make it weak enough to sway like that but strong enough to pull itself back vertical with all of the weight on it.

It is intended as a DEMONSTRATION of the effect it is not intended as any kind of scale model. People that have said it is proof the buildings should not have collapsed or that I intended it as such ARE ALL IDIOTS. I was just showing the effect of varying mass. I can't stand dumb ass Truthers that don't know squat about physics.

INSIDE JOB! JFK! PEARL HARBOR! OPERATION NORTHWOOD!

All of that horse **** is irrelevant to the physics of the WTC.

psik

PS - What jerkiness was there during the drops of the washers? So it was jerky when I zoomed in showing how the device was made. SO WHAT?
 
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You mean R. MacKey is a "lame appeal to AUTHORITY" with his NASA scientist title.

ROFLMAO

That is the funny thing about MacKey. Is he the only NASA scientist that can understand the Newtonian Physics of skyscrapers? Why aren't there LOTS of NASA scientists up there agreeing with him?

psik

Do you think RM might come down here to discuss the planes flying thrugh the perimeter columns ?
 
Do you think RM might come down here to discuss the planes flying thrugh the perimeter columns ?


he already did
Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE



pert two
Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
 
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The difference with the supposed collapse of the WTC is that it violates too much basic physics for the details of the structure to matter. We are supposed to believe that the top 15% of a skyscraper which had to be less than 15% of the mass, because skyscrapers must be bottom heavy and get stronger toward the bottom, came straight down and destroyed the rest of the structure in less than double the free fall time from the top.

That would require breaking the supports of all of the intermediate masses and accelerating those masses faster than gravity would have to make them all come down within that time.

Going into details about that particular skyscraper is just useless intellectual busywork.

What matters is distribution of mass and the strength required to hold it up. My washer demonstration had constant strength all of the way down. The support at the bottom of a stack of 20 hard drives would have to be strong enough to hold all of the weight of the drives but I could allow the supports to get weaker going up so at least the distribution of strength could more closely resemble that of a skyscraper. I would have to weigh the drives to put heavier ones toward the bottom.

I don't buy this crap about the towers coming down because of the tube in tube design.

Why can't the EXPERTS demonstrate that something with a similar distribution of mass and strength to the WTC can collapse on itself in SEVEN YEARS? All we have is writing and talking and writing and talking but there are skyscrapers all over the world and the Empire State Building was completed 70 years before the WTC was destroyed. What kind of electronic computers did they have back then? Even the stuff from the early 60s when the WTC was designed is a joke compared to what we have today. So how has this simple problem not been solved? It should have been settled in less than a year.

psik

The top only had to destroy the floor below then the top plus one destroyed the next ... ect. ect. ect.

Physics cannot be violated. Some geniuses might steal a kiss but nobody can screw with her.
 
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WRONG! I said nothing of the kind!

I never claimed the swaying of the real WTC should have been visible to the naked eye.

PS - What jerkiness was there during the drops of the washers? So it was jerky when I zoomed in showing how the device was made. SO WHAT?
I did write, "you(bill?)" because I was not sure which one or both of made that claim.

You claim that the collapse should/could have slowed down to a stop.
No, once it got moving there was no stopping it.
It would have taken something far stronger and more massive than the building to stop the drop, like the ground.


It looked like your washer model had a basic error.
The drop distance to first toothpick were higher than the distance between the rest of them. That means the tootpicks can be far too strong and you can still get the first few to break

Yes, you are better at physics than the average thruther.
That does still not make your model particular accurate.
 
he already did
Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE



pert two
Google Video This video is not hosted by the ISF, the ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Just watched the second part- thanks. Absolutely fascinating stuff. Interesting that he said the wingtips did not penetrate. I must not have noticed them falling down he front of the building then. I'll check it out later. Or maybe he meant that they folded back like the wings of the plane at the Pentagon and were dragged into the building with the rest of the plane ? One other thing I noticed is that he compares the cutting power of the fuel in the wings of the plane to the power of a concentrated jet of water that can also cut steel. That's a really interesting assertion for a scientist to make. Yes indeedy.
 
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... One other thing I noticed is that he compares the cutting power of the fuel in the wings of the plane to the power of a concentrated jet of water that can also cut steel. That's a really interesting assertion for a scientist to make. Yes indeedy.

The beams hit by the jets were boxes about 8 inches by 18 inches (from memory) made of steel six tenths of an inch thick.

The description of the machine in this video says that it can cut material up to 150mm (~6 inches) thick with a water jet.

WaterJet Cutting Machine In Operation on 3mm Stainless Steel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sorgD9nhIQk

The beams were not intended to take a local load in a horizontal direction. They folded like a cheap suit. A speeding car could to a pretty good job one.

(This is like talking to my cat.)
 

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