Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

[DC]

You like your biased propoganda eh?

You best debunk that piece of propagandistic budget, before Chavez takes over the world.

 

[funk de fino]

You best debunk that piece of propagandistic budget, before Chavez takes over the world.

Hey, I do not need to anymore. Read it yourself, they have not just reported on the budget they have thrown in biased propoganda as well. It's like the Venezuela Fox news.

Perhaps a link from the BBC would have been better and more legitimate

 

[DC]

Hey, I do not need to anymore. Read it yourself, they have not just reported on the budget they have thrown in biased propoganda as well. It's like the Venezuela Fox news.

Perhaps a link from the BBC would have been better and more legitimate

what did the BBC write about it? you got a link?

 

[DC]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7957536.stm

the BBC has mixed it with more oppinion.
and the point i dislike most about the new busget is not even mentioned in the BBC articel.

this time, the Venezuelaanalysis source is better than BBC. more details also together with the other report from venezuelaanalysis where you can find more details about the Oppositions reaction.

 

[funk de fino]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7957536.stm

the BBC has mixed it with more oppinion.
and the point i dislike most about the new busget is not even mentioned in the BBC articel.

It may not be a full article but it is a fair one an unbiased. There is far more opinion in the other one.

this time, the Venezuelaanalysis source is better than BBC. more details also together with the other report from venezuelaanalysis where you can find more details about the Oppositions reaction.

Yet its full of propoganda and insults about others including the opposition, the BBC and americans. Not fair and inbaised is it?

I dont like two things. Putting up taxes and the dollars thing. I like the raise in the minimum wage.

 

[DC]

It may not be a full article but it is a fair one an unbiased. There is far more opinion in the other one.



Yet its full of propoganda and insults about others including the opposition, the BBC and americans. Not fair and inbaised is it?

I dont like two things. Putting up taxes and the dollars thing. I like the raise in the minimum wage.

no mather if you think they have mixed it with propaganda and oppinion. its the most detailed source for the budget adjustment.

i like the spending cut for government luxury.

Speaking to pro-government governors and mayors, Chavez criticized a “culture of extravagance” in the government and certain institutions such as PDVSA (the state owned oil company) and in Miraflores (the presidential palace), something that he said that needs to be eliminated.

i dislike the money borrowing. thats huge.

you would limit the dollar even more in Venezuela?

 

[funk de fino]

no mather if you think they have mixed it with propaganda and oppinion. its the most detailed source for the budget adjustment.

I have no doubt it is more explicit but it is also full of propoganda junk.

i like the spending cut for government luxury.

Maybe something that could have been done before?

i dislike the money borrowing. thats huge.

Sadly they are not alone.

you would limit the dollar even more in Venezuela?

I disagree with the last one about the dollar, I wouldnt have restrictions like those in the first place.

I do not like the fact the rise is on VAT. It affects everyone. The tax rise should have been on people with more.

 

[DC]

I have no doubt it is more explicit but it is also full of propoganda junk.

not more than the BBC article.

Maybe something that could have been done before?

sure. but remember the press when Morales visited high officials in his handmade wool sweater?

Sadly they are not alone.

sure

I disagree with the last one about the dollar, I wouldnt have restrictions like those in the first place.

i think its a good thing to do.

I do not like the fact the rise is on VAT. It affects everyone. The tax rise should have been on people with more.

no i think its ok, sure it also hits the small bussines. but the wealthier have already pretty high taxes on luxury and will be hit additional when buying a new car or using alot fuel, by the long overdue increase of fuel prices in venezuela.

 

[Childlike Empress]

You like your biased propoganda eh?

Yup, the tone is quite amusing. I first thought about extracting the facts and only quoting one paragraph from the article, but then i thought, well, maybe someone misunderstands it and accuses me of meaning him...

I had the last paragraph in mind:

As usual, constructive criticism has degenerated into insults by opposition commentators and politicians. Will they never learn from their mistakes? Given their record, they are more likely to continue digging their hole deeper, rather than climbing out of it to face and accept new realities. But the Bolivarian Revolution continues to grow in it's depth and breadth among the majority of the people in Venezuela.

 

[funk de fino]

not more than the BBC article.

be serious? Where does the BBC article attack people like the venezuelas analysis one?

sure. but remember the press when Morales visited high officials in his handmade wool sweater?

That looks like suspiciously you have resorted to the two wrongs make it right style of argument again.

i think its a good thing to do.

What, to restrict someones right to own foreign currency is good?

no i think its ok, sure it also hits the small bussines. but the wealthier have already pretty high taxes on luxury and will be hit additional when buying a new car or using alot fuel, by the long overdue increase of fuel prices in venezuela.

Rubbish, VAT raising affects everyone. The UK actually lowered theirs. There are other ways to raise taxes that would not affect the most needy.

Only rich people have cars? Put up fuel when the price of oil is low? Your economics are strange to say the least.

 

[funk de fino]

Yup, the tone is quite amusing. I first thought about extracting the facts and only quoting one paragraph from the article, but then i thought, well, maybe someone misunderstands it and accuses me of meaning him...

I had the last paragraph in mind:

Perhaps you should stop looking at the biased stuff and get a more fair and balanced view. It may improve your performance when posting and I wont have to point out your mistakes.

 

[DC]

be serious? Where does the BBC article attack people like the venezuelas analysis one?

His announcement came shortly after the government had sent army to take control of the country's key airports and sea ports.

a part propaganda from the BBC

That looks like suspiciously you have resorted to the two wrongs make it right style of argument again.

oh lol cmon.......
forget it.....

What, to restrict someones right to own foreign currency is good?

yes

Rubbish, VAT raising affects everyone. The UK actually lowered theirs. There are other ways to raise taxes that would not affect the most needy.

never claimed enything else....................

Only rich people have cars? Put up fuel when the price of oil is low? Your economics are strange to say the least.

never said only rich have cars.......

do you have any clue how much fuel costs in Venezuela?

 

[DC]

Perhaps you should stop looking at the biased stuff and get a more fair and balanced view. It may improve your performance when posting and I wont have to point out your mistakes.

LOL

you are such a little arrogant .....

 

[funk de fino]

a part propaganda from the BBC

Has the govt taken control of those or not? If you want to be picky how about these. (and they are not all the junk that was in the full piece)

The recent bailout packages in the U.S. left $billions in the pockets of the corporate thieves who stole the U.S. economy and hundreds of millions more in the electoral "war chests" of politicians who support the the bailouts for future re-election campaigns.

big government media hammers from the NYT and BBC to the opposition media here in Venezuela have been pounding away at their forecasts that Chavez' would have to cut social spending, thus losing his electoral base among the poor. It was wishful thinking on their part

Laughably, the lame response of the opposition is that Chávez is "buying votes" with social programs. It's a throwaway answer. Making it a human right and constitutional guarantee for every citizen to have basic foods, a decent education and housing and quality health care is not "buying votes".

Prior to Chávez' address to the nation, on their TV shows and print media, the opposition had been predicting that the government would reduce these dollar amounts, hoping to whip up the ire of the middle classes.

oh lol cmon.......
forget it.....

Its probably a good idea to avoid that style of argument. It makes your argument look weak when you bring irrelevant things into to it to apologiase for something else.

yes

If you say so. A bit Big Brother if you ask me.

never claimed enything else....................

Why is it right to punish all equally then?

never said only rich have cars.......

So some of the poor have to suffer as well? Small business with vehicles? Why not tax the rich a bit more? The bigger business?

do you have any clue how much fuel costs in Venezuela?

Its low, so what? Whats the average wage? Taxing this affects everyone with a vehicle not just the rich.

 

[funk de fino]

LOL

you are such a little arrogant .....

Just wait until I actually prove that piece is biased

I will be unbearable............

 

[funk de fino]

PS - Here you go, more propoganda.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7957475.stm

Venezuela's military has taken control of key airports and sea ports under the terms of a move rubber-stamped by parliament a week ago.

Soldiers were dispatched to ports in three states governed by Mr Chavez's opponents on Saturday - Zulia, Carabobo and Nueva Esparta.

They are reporting on the move. Whats propoganda'ish about that?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Before Mr. Ledezma took office in early December, Mr. Chávez ordered Caracas's police force and public-hospital system placed under federal control. The president commandeered sports facilities and a revenue-generating downtown parking lot

OK, i didn't know that. The question is, is this a good or bad thing in face of "skyrocketing crime rates" in Caracas? What to do if such a situation doesn't change for a decade? I really don't know but thanks for the information. Now find me some english language crime statistics for Caracas over the last decade and i'll join you in the skankpit...

Here's a very good article describing the problem of the high murder rates, the causes and the measurements the Venezuelans have decided to take - the new police law in late 2008 being one of them.

It's under creative commons license so i'll quote a few paragraphs more than usual:

Battling Murder in Venezuela's Participatory Republic
May 31st 2009, by George Gabriel - OpenDemocracy.net

[...] In Venezuela, where the 1999 Bolivarian Constitution explicitly aims to create a "democratic, participatory and self-reliant" society, yet over 100,000 people were killed in a decade, [the direst] challenge is insecurity.

Professor Ross Hastings of Ottawa University identifies three determinants of a person's engagement in criminal activity: personal disposition, personal situation, and lack of fear of the justice system. In Venezuela, with poverty halved since 2003, the stand out cause of homicides must be considered the impunity with which they are carried out. Barely 3% of murders result in a sentence. Yonny Campos, Commissioner of the Caracas-wide Metropolitan Police explains, "they commit homicides, 2,3,15,20, and no one denounces them, no one chases them, no one takes action."

The roots of impunity in Venezuela are complex. General Commissioner Pedro Tang blames the overwhelmed judicial process, "Investigators can have as many as three or four thousand cases at any one time!" Yet Tang admits, "the police themselves are a part of the problem." The institution has inherited a culture of brutality in which human rights are still abused by police forces, sapping confidence, leading to lower levels of denunciation and in turn higher levels of impunity. Venezuelan NGO Red de Apoyo por la Justicia y la Paz (RAJ) found 113 cases of torture, and 985 of cruel, degrading or inhuman punishment in 2004. Add to these causes of impunity the familiar mix of corruption and incompetence and Venezuela's fight against insecurity seems unwinnable.

While the Republic fails in the most basic of state functions, guaranteeing the lives of its citizens, its leader has been attacked because only after securing the ability to run for office again in February's referendum did Chávez shift a real degree of his serious rhetorical weight onto the topic of insecurity, decreeing "7 fronts against insecurity" on the 17th of March 2009.

The fight against insecurity by Venezuelan society, led by several NGOs, began years ago. In 2000, making use of a provision in the constitution that allows laws to be presented to the National Assembly by popular mandate, RAJ, gathering thousands of signatures, presented a draft law on the Venezuelan police: the first presented to the Assembly via popular action. Soraya El Achkar, a founder of RAJ, described to me the disappointment when it fell off the agenda in the ‘time of conflict' - the failed coup of 2002, and the subsequent lockout in the country's core industry, oil.

The truth is that in 2006 the state caught up. The Ministry for Justice created Conarepol (the National Police Reform Council), with El Achkar at the head of its technical team. Conarepol embarked on a nation-wide consultation in which over 75,000 citizens participated, identifying causes of insecurity and generating proposals to meet them. 58,857 people contributed via the Internet, phone lines, and suggestion boxes placed in communities across the country: in jungles, inner city slums, open savannas, and Andean mountain towns. This effort pushed deeper with specialist forums, discussions with vulnerable groups like sex workers, and focus groups, including one series in which 1374 police officers took part.

In 2008 Venezuela's new police law came into being, following the consultation's recommendations to the letter. "We have insisted on the need to reach a moral agreement with respect to the police that we want. We've indicated that no change is possible if the state, society and functionaries of the police don't come to a sustained political agreement concerning democratic and responsible reform," declared the then Minister for Justice, Jesse Chacon.

Not only did the people have a say, they decided to maintain their own involvement, scorning long established liberal assumptions. 78% of participants deemed citizen supervision of police accounts essential, while a mere 2% believed inter-institutional monitoring presented a solution. Citizens now have the right to supervise the rendition of police accounts to an unprecedented degree. What's more, the people have demanded that the police bow to the reality of a participatory republic: that they shift from a reactive, repressive policing model to preventative, community-based policing.

Pilot Nuclei of Community Policing sprang up in three of the toughest Caracas slums. With similar numbers of officers and little by way of extra resources, after 3 months of work the nuclei were evaluated as "excellent" by 85% of those using them, in comparison with 15% in Anzoategui state. Residents living around the nuclei put it simply, "we shoot at them less". [...]

Goes on describing the actions communities and "gang structures" are taking to battle the murderers - legally and illegally.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Meanwhile:

Latin America’s Pro-Capitalist Elite Hold Anti-Chávez Conference in Venezuela
May 29th 2009, by James Suggett – Venezuelanalysis.com

Mérida, May 29th 2009 (Venezuelanalysis.com) -- Hundreds of right-wing political leaders and representatives of pro-capitalist think tanks from across the world gathered in Venezuela's luxurious Caracas Palace Hotel this week for an exclusive event titled "International Conference for Freedom and Democracy: The Latin American Challenge."

A major theme of the conference was how to put an end to the political changes been carried out by President Hugo Chávez and a wave of other progressive presidents who have been elected across the region over the past ten years.

The usual suspects conspiring to overthrow the most elected Government in the world. Mario Vargas Llosa delivered the prosa. Chavez invited them onto his TV Show :

In response to Vargas Llosa's accusations that Chávez shows a "growing fear of all forms of criticism," President Chávez invited the conference participants to hold a debate with international advocates of socialism on his weekly presidential talk show, Aló Presidente.

"I say this very seriously... since there is no freedom of expression here, we are inviting them to a debate," said Chávez on Thursday. "How great it would be to have a special Aló Presidente; invite the Right and the socialists, and I will sit among the public audience and leave you all to debate."

Vargas and the other participants in the conference accepted the invitation on the condition that President Chávez participate. Chavez said the debate should remain between intellectuals of the Right and Left, and said the debate could take place on Saturday morning at 11 o'clock in the Miraflores presidential building.

I await the video with subtitles.

And look there, our young friend Yon Goicoechea, the Chicago Boy, has a new Foundation:

The CEDICE conference also corresponded with this week's inauguration of a new youth political training center outside of Caracas created by CEDICE in partnership with the Cato Institute. The Cato-CEDICE school has received support from the Future Present Foundation, which was founded by Yon Goicoechea, the leader of violent anti-Chávez destabilization riots who received a $500,000 "freedom" award from the Cato Institute last year.

"Future President Foundation"!

 

[Ziggurat]

"Future President Foundation"!

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/9907451897c0442ad.gif[/qimg]

Indeed, that is funny: it says "Future Present Foundation". Bit of a reading comprehension problem you've got there, Empress.

 

[geni]

The good news for anyone hopeing for a big left right showdown in south america is that Álvaro Uribe is also setting things up so he can run for another term. Could get interesting.