Molten Steel

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TjW said:
His trust is not evidence for molten steel.
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His certainty is. If god were to say there was molten steel in the debris pile Gravy and his faithful followers would instantly become atheists. You are just denying because you are probably getting paid to. Ignoring all the qualified experts is absurd.

Molten metal weeks later in the rubble pile is not evidence for a thermite CD weeks earlier.
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Standard diversion statement. It sidesteps what melted the steel in the first place.

He is also on record as believing that the fire and damage was enough to cause the collapse. He is a professional in the CD business.
There is no doubt in his mind. Why is there any doubt in yours?
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If I had a nickel for every time I have heard that one. . . . Deal with the steel!

He said there were photos and videos of molten steel being dipped out. The govt. is hiding these photos and videos from the public.

He is just one of many who say there was molten steel. To deny them all is just denial.
 
Christopher7 said:
Abolhassan Astaneh: Professor of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley and was one of the leading structural engineers who studied the collapse of the World Trade Center on 9/11.
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html
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You've posted a lot of links so I'll go through them one by one and we'll address each on their own. Is this OK?

You neglected to fully quote from the article above. Considering the wider content it's quite apparent from a cursory look there's a mistype/misprint there. How on Earth did you miss it?

Here's a more expansive quote:-

ABOLHASSAN ASTANEH: Here, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees. And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders. I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center.

SPENCER MICHELS: But they got soft, though, didn't they?

ABOLHASSAN ASTANEH: Yes. When steel gets to 1,000 degrees, it loses its strength.
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How do you reconcile the unequivocal statement:-

So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders.
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with the following sentence?

In between the bolded words "saw" and "melting" I believe there is a two letter word missing. I'll give you three guesses what it might be.

Have you clarified this with Mr Astaneh? You are searching for the truth right?

BV
 
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Christopher7 said:
Tired denial question. Deal with the evidence that exists. It is enough to establish the existence of molten steel beyond a reasonable doubt.

There were no doubt witnesses. The government and media are not telling us. The govt. withheld the 500 first responder statements, including about 100 that heard explosions, until family members and the NY Times filed a FoIA request and forced them to release the incriminating evidence. Other than the NY Times, the media did not report this incriminating evidence. This is clearly a cover up on the part of the govt. and the MSM [main stream media].

The MSM will not show the implosion of WTC 7 because too many people will see that it is a CD.
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So now C7 is implicating 3,000 firemen in a criminal cover-up of a crime that killed 340 of their friends.


Millions of us know some of the thousands of people that worked on the pile.
The 3,000 firemen that lived through 9/11 are known to hundreds of thousands of friends. I know a couple in both categories.

After 9 years of talking to these people, we can conclude that:

The public record is accurate and compete for the purposes of knowing that there as no man-made demolition at WTC

The transcripts of firemen are also complete and correct.

Nobody's covering anything up.

There is no "you should'a seen what I saw" stories that add anything to the public record of 9/11.
​
 
Christopher7 said:
You are being disingenuous. You know that Mark Loizeaux said that steel was being scooped out by the buckets of the excavators. There were many reports of molten steel at different times during the weeks and months after 9/11.
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Bucket machines were quickly found to be ineffective on the pile at ground zero and within a day were replaced with cranes with tools like this .


These claws can't pick up anything that is molten.

These are shown in many of the WTC photographs we post here, including the picture glowing object some of us see as "molten steel".

Source: The book, Nine Months at Ground Zero.
 
TheDaver said:
Prove to me that it was molten steel.
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Read and listen to the witness statements.

Abolhassan Astaneh: Professor of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley and was one of the leading structural engineers who studied the collapse of the World Trade Center on 9/11.
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html

The History Channel's "World Trade Center, Rise and Fall of an American Icon"
Richard Riggs a Debris Removal Specialist that was doing the clean up.
"The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel that was being dug up."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ogrupgt4mI&feature=related

Firefighters
"You get down below and you'd see molten steel - molten steel running down the channel rail, like you're in a foundry, like lava."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3060923273573302287&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en

[FONT=&quot]6 weeks later [/FONT]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrJCa1haaY

[FONT=&quot]Fuchek[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the end of the beam would be dripping[/FONT]molten steel[FONT=&quot],”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Firefighter Joe O'Toole[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O'Toole [/FONT][FONT=&quot]saw a steel beam being lifted[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from deep underground at Ground Zero, which, he says, "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]was dripping from the[/FONT]molten steel[FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/messengerinquirer_recoveryworker.html

Lee Turner: Paramedic
Turner himself crawled through an opening and down crumpled stairwells to the subway, five levels below ground. He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/9_11/articles/911memories.htm

Alison Geyh, PhD. John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
http://www.jhsph.edu/Publications/Special/Welch.htm

[FONT=&quot]Father Edward A. Malloy, on site 40 days after the disaster stated:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "Firefighters atop a number of ladder trucks were spraying in the areas of greatest smoke. The average temperature beneath the rubble is said to be 1500F so that when [/FONT][FONT=&quot]steel[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is brought up it is [/FONT]molten[FONT=&quot] and takes two or three days to cool down."[/FONT]

Ron Burger: Public health advisor at the National Center for Environmental Health, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
“Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helen’s and the thousands who fled that disaster,”
http://www.neha.org/9-11 report/index-The.html

Sarah Atlas New Jersey’s Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue.
Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet.
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/sasalum/newsltr/summer2002/k911.html

William Langewiesche correspondent for the Atlantic
He crawled through "the pile" with survey parties and descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200207/77nwash


A structural engineer who worked for the Trade Center's original designer saw
"streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole." (pages 31-32)
http://www.amazon.com/American-Ground-Unbuilding-World-Center/dp/0865476756


New York firefighters recall “heat so intense they encountered rivers of molten steel.” [FONT=&quot][New York Post, 3/3/2004]*[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Peter Tully: President of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of “literally molten steel” at the World Trade Center. [/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Tully was contracted after the Sept. 11 tragedy to re move the debris from the site. [/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris.[/FONT]
http://web.archive.org/web/20020905195530/http://www.americanfreepress.net/09_03_02/NEW_SEISMIC_/new_seismic_.html

Mark Loizeaux:
[FONT=&quot]"I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape [/FONT]
 
Christopher7 said:
Read and listen to the witness statements.

Abolhassan Astaneh: Professor of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley and was one of the leading structural engineers who studied the collapse of the World Trade Center on 9/11.
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/scien...ass_05-10.html

The History Channel's "World Trade Center, Rise and Fall of an American Icon"
Richard Riggs a Debris Removal Specialist that was doing the clean up.
"The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel that was being dug up."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ogru...eature=related

Firefighters
"You get down below and you'd see molten steel - molten steel running down the channel rail, like you're in a foundry, like lava."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ocidfeed&hl=en

6 weeks later
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrJCa1haaY

Fuchek
“In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be drippingmolten steel,”

Firefighter Joe O'Toole
As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O'Toole saw a steel beam being lifted from deep underground at Ground Zero, which, he says, "was dripping from themolten steel."
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wt...eryworker.html

Lee Turner: Paramedic
Turner himself crawled through an opening and down crumpled stairwells to the subway, five levels below ground. He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/9_11/ar...11memories.htm

Alison Geyh, PhD. John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
http://www.jhsph.edu/Publications/Special/Welch.htm

Father Edward A. Malloy, on site 40 days after the disaster stated:
"Firefighters atop a number of ladder trucks were spraying in the areas of greatest smoke. The average temperature beneath the rubble is said to be 1500F so that when steel is brought up it is molten and takes two or three days to cool down."

Ron Burger: Public health advisor at the National Center for Environmental Health, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
“Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helen’s and the thousands who fled that disaster,”
http://www.neha.org/9-11 report/index-The.html

Sarah Atlas New Jersey’s Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue.
Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet.
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/sasalum/new...2002/k911.html

William Langewiesche correspondent for the Atlantic
He crawled through "the pile" with survey parties and descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200207/77nwash


A structural engineer who worked for the Trade Center's original designer saw
"streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole." (pages 31-32)
http://www.amazon.com/American-Groun.../dp/0865476756


New York firefighters recall “heat so intense they encountered rivers of molten steel.” [New York Post, 3/3/2004]*

Peter Tully: President of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of “literally molten steel” at the World Trade Center.
Tully was contracted after the Sept. 11 tragedy to re move the debris from the site.
Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020905...s.net/09_03_02/NEW_SEISMIC_/new_seismic_.html

Mark Loizeaux:
"I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape
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Prove to me that it was molten steel, not just that people called it molten steel.
 
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bonavada said:
You've posted a lot of links so I'll go through them one by one and we'll address each on their own. Is this OK?
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Sure, I know Gravy's list of denials by heart.

You neglected to fully quote from the article above. Considering the wider content it's quite apparent from a cursory look there's a mistype/misprint there. How on Earth did you miss it?

Here's a more expansive quote:-

How do you reconcile the unequivocal statement:-
Have you clarified this with Mr Astaneh? You are searching for the truth right? You are trying to deny it.
BV
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Your deliberate misinterpretation is right out of Gravy's denial book.

Here's the statement:
Abolhassan Astaneh: Here, [freeway overpass in Oakland, Ca.] it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees. And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders. I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center.
[FONT=&quot]SPENCER MICHELS: But they got soft, though, didn't they?[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]ABOLHASSAN ASTANEH: Yes. When steel gets to 1,000 degrees, it loses its strength.[/FONT]

He is comparing the girders in the overpass that sagged and failed but did not melt [turn to liquid] with the girders he saw at the WTC that did melt [turned to liquid].

You are new here. What you don't realize is that I know you are reading from Gravy's denial book because I have answered this exact same question a couple dozen times now.
 
With further reading of Astaneh's story I've realised that his quotes may not be as contradictory as I first thought <smacks hand> It definitely needs clarification. To that end I have e-mailed the Professor and asked him to expand on his statement.

BV
 
Christopher7 said:
You are new here. What you don't realize is that I know you are reading from Gravy's denial book because I have answered this exact same question a couple dozen times now.
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What is this obsession with Gravy? I didn't need Gravys help to misinterpret anyone. I did it all on my lonesome ownsome. Stop with Gravy stuff already. It's sooooooh boring.

BV
 
BigAl said:
Bucket machines were quickly found to be ineffective on the pile at ground zero and within a day were replaced with cranes with tools like this . These claws can't pick up anything that is molten.
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That's a big duh good buddy.

These are shown in many of the WTC photographs we post here, including the picture glowing object some of us see as "molten steel".

Source: The book, Nine Months at Ground Zero.
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You are calling Mark Loizeaux a liar.

This one did not have a problem:

crabclawwithpistonsealajk6.png
 
bonavada said:
What is this obsession with Gravy? I didn't need Gravys help to misinterpret anyone. I did it all on my lonesome ownsome. Stop with Gravy stuff already. It's sooooooh boring.

BV
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It's the same stuff, over and over. Gravy is the puppeteer. What Mr. Astaneh said is perfectly clear yet denier after denier misinterprets in the same way.
 
Next..................

Christopher7 said:
The History Channel's "World Trade Center, Rise and Fall of an American Icon"
Richard Riggs a Debris Removal Specialist that was doing the clean up.
"The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel that was being dug up."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ogrupgt4mI&feature=related
Click to expand...


The premise you expound is that melted steel found during the WTC clean-up was a result of thermite combustion. Correct?

I notice in Riggs' clip that he attributes melted steel to fires fuelled by "office combustibles". Since when has thermite been an office combustible?

BV
 
Christopher7 said:
It's the same stuff, over and over. Gravy is the puppeteer. What Mr. Astaneh said is perfectly clear yet denier after denier misinterprets in the same way.
Click to expand...

I have already admitted that I may be wrong about my initial interpretation. I have contacted Prof. Astaneh to clarify. What do you want? Penance? I'll do a couple of Hail Marys if you like.

Please stop this Gravy rubbish, I am totally unconnected to the bloke. I am no puppet. I pull my own strings.

BV
 
bonavada said:
Next..................
The premise you expound is that melted steel found during the WTC clean-up was a result of thermite combustion. Correct?
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Correct

I notice in Riggs' clip that he attributes melted steel to fires fuelled by "office combustibles". Since when has thermite been an office combustible?
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Since when can office fires melt steel?
 
bonavada said:
I have already admitted that I may be wrong about my initial interpretation. I have contacted Prof. Astaneh to clarify. What do you want? Penance? I'll do a couple of Hail Marys if you like.

Please stop this Gravy rubbish, I am totally unconnected to the bloke. I am no puppet. I pull my own strings.

BV
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But you are in his puppetorium and you ask the same questions all the puppets ask. ;)
 
Mercutio said:
Are you calling Riggs a liar?
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Heavens no. He was told to say that. The point is, 'they' acknowledged the existence of molten steel. This was before 'they' realized that it was their undoing. 'They' though everyone would by the "office fire melts steel" BS.

Oops! :blush:

It doesn't get more definitive than this. The History Chanel does a documentary and says there was molten steel at the WTC.

Ya just can't tap dance around that without falling on your . . . .
Nor can you deny it without sounding like an . . . .
 
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Christopher7 said:
He was told to say that. The point is, 'they' acknowledged the existence of molten steel. This was before 'they' realized that it was their undoing. 'They' though everyone would by the "office fire melts steel" BS.
Oops! :blush:
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Horsesh*t.

Firstly, Riggs never mentions "office fire" in the clip. Those are your words. He says "office combustibles". There were no "office fires" following the destruction of the WTC. Only intense fires burning carpets, plastics, wood, paper, textiles etc in a pile of mangled wreckage.

Secondly, where is your evidence that Riggs was "told to say that"? Be honest, you just plucked that out of your arse right?

I see now why you have been called a liar so many times here.

BV
 
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