Cuomo's Brownshirts put squeeze on AIG

[Cleon]

Permit me to adjust my prior comments a bit. I may have been too aggressive in my attitude.

Noooooo!

Consider the following.

95% of AIG are good people, 5% are, let us say, "BAD". We all likely agree there.

I tend to think 100% of them are various shades of "gray," but that's neither here nor there.

The contracts to pay bonuses come up. OUTRAGE! OUTRAGE!

Now, what is our goal? Is it to destroy the company that "we" (Collectively, I wouldn't have bailed them) are trying to give continued life to through bailouts?

It's not a question of "goals." The reaction to the AIG bonuses has not been a rational response. It's been the response of people, feeling (correctly, IMO) that they're paying the price for misdeeds by the finance industry, looking for a scapegoat.

Scapegoating is not about a "goal." It's an expression of outrage, aimed at whoever is most convenient, not the ones who are actually guilty.

 

[BPSCG]

If he kept money paid to him by a company that had no money of its own, which had lost other people's money playing idiot games, he is a maggot.

Is the guy on the assembly line at a Chrysler plant also a maggot, then?

If he turns it back to the government or places it in the hands of an agency that is doing something worthwhile for the country, he is a rational human being with morals.

Ah, AIG, an insurance company, does nothing worthwhile. Got it.

I can never beat the stupidity of the investor class mantra that THEY create wealth.

Investors move their money where they think it will be most productive. They make it possible for factories to be built, where your Working Class Heroes can make goods that improve people's lives.

You seem to think that they should move their money to the U.S. treasury. In case you hadn't noticed, Uncle Sam doesn't build factories for your Working Class Heroes to work in.

 

[mhaze]

I tend to think 100% of them are various shades of "gray," but that's neither here nor there.

Suuurrre. A guy at a desk who has spent 23 years calculating insurance rates fo 412 varieties of commercial aircraft (as an example).

It's not a question of "goals." The reaction to the AIG bonuses has not been a rational response. It's been the response of people, feeling (correctly, IMO) that they're paying the price for misdeeds by the finance industry, looking for a scapegoat.

Scapegoating is not about a "goal." It's an expression of outrage, aimed at whoever is most convenient, not the ones who are actually guilty.

I am aware of the history of political abuse of this sort.

 

[Uzzy]

It's a nice case of Socialism for the rich, and capitalism for the poor. As has been mentioned above, the bankers at AIG are lucky to have jobs and/or homes, thanks to the Government bailout. Quite unlike the people who are suffering thanks to those bankers corruption.

Heck, the debate shouldn't be whether or not those bankers get to keep the bonus. It should be whether or not those bankers go to jail for running America, and by extension the world, into the economic abyss.

 

[rwguinn]

It's a nice case of Socialism for the rich, and capitalism for the poor. As has been mentioned above, the bankers at AIG are lucky to have jobs and/or homes, thanks to the Government bailout. Quite unlike the people who are suffering thanks to those bankers corruption.

Heck, the debate shouldn't be whether or not those bankers get to keep the bonus. It should be whether or not those bankers go to jail for running America, and by extension the world, into the economic abyss.

I hope that I do not live to see the Brave New World that you would create...

 

[Uzzy]

What, one without bankers being bailed out and paid bonuses for not just any old failure, but one that caused a full blown recession? I wouldn't mind that at all. Send the DoJ in on a fishing expedition, see who was responsible for the mess and see what crimes they can be charged with.

If bankers want to be reasonable and do safe things with peoples money, that's fine. If bankers want to take huge risks with other peoples money, then they shouldn't be surprised that they pay the price when those huge risks don't pay off. That's, you know, capitalism in action.

Unfortunately, instead of the free market dealing with bankers who fail, the government stepped in with socialism and bails them out. (After the banks begged to be bailed out) However, when it's people lower down the food chain, the government doesn't step in to bail them out. It's only too happy to let capitalism do it's work on them.

 

[ZirconBlue]

It's a nice case of Socialism for the rich, and capitalism for the poor. As has been mentioned above, the bankers at AIG are lucky to have jobs and/or homes, thanks to the Government bailout. Quite unlike the people who are suffering thanks to those bankers corruption.

Likely, if they hadn't been promised a retention bonus, many of them would have left AIG some time ago. Perhaps even before the bailout.

Heck, the debate shouldn't be whether or not those bankers get to keep the bonus. It should be whether or not those bankers go to jail for running America, and by extension the world, into the economic abyss.

I haven't seen any evidence at all that any of these "bankers" broke any laws. Do you have any such evidence?

 

[dudalb]

The investor class is just there to move the credits for wealth created to places where other working people can create more wealth. When it ceases to perform that functiuon, it is uselss or worse and needs to be brought back in line. Time for the investor class to learn their pace in the scheme of things.

God, even most Marxist have dropped the Surplus Value theory as being too simplistic.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

DeSantis, of course, is not a Working Class Hero; he's a maggot, and thus deserves leftysergeant's contempt, and the loss of the money he has earned.

If he kept money paid to him by a company that had no money of its own, which had lost other people's money playing idiot games, he is a maggot. If he turns it back to the government or places it in the hands of an agency that is doing something worthwhile for the country, he is a rational human being with morals.

What of the lower-level employees who worked for the same company, and received wages in compensation for their work. Should all employees of this company give back what they have earned from it? Does keeping money that one has rightfully-earned make one a “maggot”? Or is that only for the Bourgeois, and not for the Proletariat?

 

[Uzzy]

Likely, if they hadn't been promised a retention bonus, many of them would have left AIG some time ago. Perhaps even before the bailout.

How is that a problem?

I haven't seen any evidence at all that any of these "bankers" broke any laws. Do you have any such evidence?

No, but I find it unlikely that something of this magnitude could have occurred without some laws being broken. So I think the DoJ should go fishing, trawl through the books and see what happened. Heck, the Enron guys got thrown in jail.

 

[dudalb]

How is that a problem?



No, but I find it unlikely that something of this magnitude could have occurred without some laws being broken. So I think the DoJ should go fishing, trawl through the books and see what happened. Heck, the Enron guys got thrown in jail.

Uh, you do know the idea of "Fishing Expeditions" by prosecutors are a no no in the US Justice system?

I have no love whatsoever for the AIG execs, but this is beginning to sound like a witch hunt to me.
And then there is the issue that incompetency are not indictable offenses except in certain circumstances which do not seem to apply here.

 

[dudalb]

This whole thread is a reminder why I have a general "Plague On Both Your Houses" attitude toward the hard line ideologues on both Left and Right.

 

[godless dave]

Those poor banking executives. All they did was do their jobs incompetently and recklessly and lose their customers' money. What kind of world is this coming to where people face consequences for being bad at their jobs?

 

[ZirconBlue]

Those poor banking executives. All they did was do their jobs incompetently and recklessly and lose their customers' money. What kind of world is this coming to where people face consequences for being bad at their jobs?

I'm not entirely convinced that any incompetence has even been demonstrated. If so, it would seem to indicate that a large percentage of the global financial industry is incompetent. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[mhaze]

Uh, you do know the idea of "Fishing Expeditions" by prosecutors are a no no in the US Justice system?

I have no love whatsoever for the AIG execs, but this is beginning to sound like a witch hunt to me.
And then there is the issue that incompetency are not indictable offenses except in certain circumstances which do not seem to apply here.

That is why what should have occurred was the filing of Ch. 11 bankrupcy by AIG. All materials would then be in the hands of the court and any wrongdoing prosecutable. As is now by joint coalition of AIG and White House/Frank/Dodd/Pelosi et al we don't have full knowledge.

By this artifice is the search for wrongdoing boxed into the construct of "witch hunt".

 

[Alt+F4]

What of the lower-level employees who worked for the same company, and received wages in compensation for their work. Should all employees of this company give back what they have earned from it? Does keeping money that one has rightfully-earned make one a “maggot”?

Depends on your definition of "rightfully-earned". Meanwhile, cry me a river for the AIG employees who say, "Iit wasn't me, it was this other guy who ran the company into the ground. Give me my money."

The individual guy on the assembly line didn't destroy the the auto industry. The cop on the beat didn't make the municipal government go broke, yet they are both told that if they don't renegotiate their legally binding contracts and do severe givebacks there will be layoffs.

If you think the destruction of AIG would be bad for the economy what do you think will happen when the auto industry, law enforcement and education go down the sewer as well?

 

[INRM]

Kallsop,

Hope and Change, or we'll stone you.

That's good, I like that one

 

[Thunder]

Its better then "either you are with us or you are with the terrorists"

 

[Nova Land]

These AIG bonuses were specifically authorized in the $787B stimulus bill.

Really? If so, I'd appreciate it if you would quote the part of the bill which does this.

I have heard this point asserted, but have not heard or read a quote of the specific passage in the bill in which this is done. The wording of the assertions generally has sounded to me more like the repetition of a talking point than an informed comment.

The talking point may be correct, or it may not be. Not having read the bill myself, I do not know. Therefore if you have knowledge on this matter, you could do a service by sharing it.

My suspicion is that the bill does not "specifically authorize" such bonuses. Rather, I suspect the bill lacks a provision to prevent the payment of such bonuses. In other words, the payment of the bonuses was legal before the passage of the bill and remained legal after the passage.

 

[Metullus]

Depends on your definition of "rightfully-earned". Meanwhile, cry me a river for the AIG employees who say, "Iit wasn't me, it was this other guy who ran the company into the ground. Give me my money."

So, some employees should be paid for their work and others not. I'll go along with that as long as I get to decide which is which.

The individual guy on the assembly line didn't destroy the the auto industry. The cop on the beat didn't make the municipal government go broke, yet they are both told that if they don't renegotiate their legally binding contracts and do severe givebacks there will be layoffs.

UAW members and Police usually are not expected to renegotiate their wages after they have performed the work. Even so, blame AIG for not trying to negotiate with its employees and not the employees for not renegotiating with AIG.

If you think the destruction of AIG would be bad for the economy what do you think will happen when the auto industry, law enforcement and education go down the sewer as well?

Non sequitor.