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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Which links are you talking about, and explain why they are poorly written and illogical.

The Geisler book you quote in your opening post in this thread is pure garbage, as many here have already pointed out. Opinions based on subjective judgments are not facts, no matter how often you insist that they are.

This thread is not about me but point out some posts where I've been arrogant.

Most of what you post comes across as arrogant bluster. Try every post you make where you insist that because your threads are always so long that they're good ("my 600 plus posts in this thread" and "this thread has over 40,000 hits" are two I can remember offhand). Quantity does not equal quality, and your insistence that it does is arrogance.

In almost 2500 posts in this thread, you still have not provided ANY evidence proving that the New Testament writers were telling any kind of truth. Stamping your feet and shouting the same words louder still haven't magically changed opinions into facts. Now you're doing the cha-cha with the goalposts and yelling "Look! Elvis!" in desperate attempts to avoid the issue by derailing your own thread. And you still can't admit that any of your attempts at evidence are inadequate, even when it's pointed out to you WHY they're inadequate. That kind of stubborn refusal to admit error is arrogance.
 
So, you were an atheist in your young adult life. Then, you were able to "look at the big picture," and see that Christianity made sense to you. Also, you like the idea of eternal life. Is that your answer?.
It's not my answer, it is the answer of the man Thomas Jefferson said gave us the greatest system of morality the world has ever known. It is the answer of the religion Benjamin Franklin said is the greatest religion that ever was or will be.

This same man, Christ, the main focus of the world's most populous religion said "You do the will of the Father and ye shall have eternal life". I believe it and in my 500 or so posts in this thread I given you some reasons why you should believe Christ came, he died, and rose from the dead, just like the greatest selling book in the history of the world said He did. But God also gave you free will. Christ said go to people's homes and teach the gospel, but he also said if the people don't accept it, shake the dust off your feet when you leave. The choice is yours. If you believe atheism is the answer so be it, it's your choice. Communist Russia made its choice about atheism in 1905. Things didn't work out so good though.
 
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DOC, do you believe Muhammed was more influential than Jesus Christ?

Possibly and that's what worries me, and it should worry atheists too because after the Muslim religion overwhelms Europe in 100 to 200 years because of a high birth rate the European atheists are going to get a big your not welcome sign or worse. Then they will probably have to move to Christian America. Those riots in the streets of France last year by disenchanted Muslim youth are probably just a taste of things to come.
 
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The Geisler book you quote in your opening post in this thread is pure garbage, as many here have already pointed out. Opinions based on subjective judgments are not facts, no matter how often you insist that they are.

You've got the right to your opinion. I'll be content if you in fact read the entire 21 pages of chapter 11 of his book. If you haven't, there is a link to those pages in post #2232.


Most of what you post comes across as arrogant bluster. Try every post you make where you insist that because your threads are always so long that they're good.

Never said this, that's why I asked you to give a post. The only time I mention the size of the thread is when people personally attack me or try to belittle me. If people don't personally attack me, I don't mention the size of the thread.
 
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DOC, now that we're past the racism diversion, let's get back to the key issue: Did Jesus condone slavery:
You claim the golden rule proves he was against it...yet:
Ah the golden rule. But then Doing unto others seemed to exclude slavery as explained in his parable of the master and slave. (or servant...but we know what servant meant)

Why did he still use slavery as an accepted concept then?
Further, why would Paul later go on to give rules as to how slaves and slave owners should behave?
Ephesians 6:5-9 said:
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."


Notive how the rules apply both ways but still permit the practice of slavery? Paul demonstrates exactly how the golden rule didn't contradict slavery.


So, DOC, it is simply a fact: Jesus condones slavery and the new testament even justifies it's practice.
 
Then we agree. "Looking at the big picture" is just another way of saying "I saw what I wanted to see." You concede that your desire for eternal life is a central factor in your beliefs... this is a desire. An emotional need.

If God offers eternal life as he does in the words of Christ, I'm surely not going to turn it down. Even Paul says, if Christ is not risen, our faith is in vain. Which means without eternal life Christianity is meaningless. But the evidence was there for intellectual Paul and the former coward Peter and the former doubting Thomas which was why they and many others risked their lives preaching the risen Christ. And evidence for the Resurrection was not only available for Paul and Peter and Thomas but its available to us also.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
 
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In the "Do Most Atheists know that Science..." thread I mentioned Norman Geisler and Frank Turek's book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" a few times because of its clear explanations of scientific theories. But, yes, they did talk about more than science.

If these things are "evidence" that the NT is true, then the Lord of the Rings is also fact.

When can I visit Middle Earth?
 
If God offers eternal life as he does in the words of Christ, I'm surely not going to turn it down.
So why not sign up to all gods to maximise your chances?
Even Paul says, if Christ is not risen, our faith is in vain. Which means without eternal life Christianity is meaningless.
Agreed.
But the evidence was there for intellectual Paul and the former coward Peter and the former doubting Thomas which was why they and many others risked their lives preaching the risen Christ. And evidence for the Resurrection was not only available for Paul and Peter and Thomas but for us also.
In that case you will have no difficulty in providing evidence here of the resurrection.

B.t.w. The conflicting resurrection stories in the bible are not evidence. Intelligent (or otherwise) people believing in it are not evidence. Unsubstantiated claims it happened is not evidence.
 
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It's not my answer, it is the answer of the man Thomas Jefferson said gave us the greatest system of morality the world has ever known. It is the answer of the religion Benjamin Franklin said is the greatest religion that ever was or will be.

This same man, Christ, the main focus of the world's most populous religion said "You do the will of the Father and ye shall have eternal life". I believe it and in my 500 or so posts in this thread I given you some reasons why you should believe Christ came, he died, and rose from the dead, just like the greatest selling book in the history of the world said He did. But God also gave you free will. Christ said go to people's homes and teach the gospel, but he also said if the people don't accept it, shake the dust off your feet when you leave. The choice is yours. If you believe atheism is the answer so be it, it's your choice. Communist Russia made its choice about atheism in 1905. Things didn't work out so good though.

It's a choice I am forced to make by because of logic and reason. And if you could examine all the evidence in an unbiased way, you'd be forced to come to the same conclusion as me. But you can't... your emotional needs won't let you do that.

Instead, you tell me about Jefferson and Communist Russia. These are logical fallacies, Jefferson may be a respected man but he can still be wrong, you are using the fallacy "argument from authority," and besides which you may even be taking something he said out of context, I'm not sure. And with Communist Russia, correlation does not always equal causation, so it's easily possible that how things worked out had nothing to do with atheism. (Probably had a lot to do with Communism.)

So, your logic doesn't hold up. But you don't care if it doesn't hold up... because ultimately, your beliefs are not based on logic, they are based on emotion. So again, I ask you... please stop pretending to care about logic and reason, if you are going to use them, use them correctly. If you aren't going to use them correctly, then just abandon them, be honest with yourself and admit that the ultimate reason you are religious is because of your emotional needs. That is the truth.

If God offers eternal life as he does in the words of Christ, I'm surely not going to turn it down. Even Paul says, if Christ is not risen, our faith is in vain. Which means without eternal life Christianity is meaningless. But the evidence was there for intellectual Paul and the former coward Peter and the former doubting Thomas which was why they and many others risked their lives preaching the risen Christ. And evidence for the Resurrection was not only available for Paul and Peter and Thomas but its available to us also.

Hmm, you made two posts just to respond to my single post? It's probably more efficient just to put all your thoughts in a single post. If you think of something new later, you can always edit your post with the "ETA" thing.

"Eternal life" is a story you choose to believe in. I don't, because the facts don't support it. The "evidence" does not hold up under unbiased scrutiny, it only holds up when you examine it through desire-colored glasses. You don't really care what the facts support... you only pretend to care about facts, but what you really care about is satisfying your emotional needs. Am I making myself pretty clear?

I have nothing against you personally, DOC. You're probably a really nice guy, and I'm sure we'd get along outside this forum. You can believe whatever you want, just stop pretending like your reasons for doing so are logical. They are emotional. Be a little more honest with yourself, huh?
 
Possibly and that's what worries me, and it should worry atheists too because after the Muslim religion overwhelms Europe in 100 to 200 years because of a high birth rate the European atheists are going to get a big your not welcome sign or worse. Then they will probably have to move to Christian America. Those riots in the streets of France last year by disenchanted Muslim youth are probably just a taste of things to come.


Paranoid xenophobia FTW!
 
You mean the same rods which are sometimes called "Mosaic rods" or "rods of Aaron" because both Moses and his brother Aaron used them?



Not to harp Moses, but he did claim he spoke to God in the form of a burning bush. How is this any different than Harris' claim of Jesus in the form of a deer (flame retardant underwear not withstanding)?



Nopers, I don't{believe in Mormonism}. After reviewing the material in some depth, I had a number of issues which included, but are not limited to, the anarchronisms found within The Book of Mormon, the striking resemblance of BoM places and map features to Northeast United States and Southeast Canada rather than South America (and the DNA evidence that goes along with this), and, most conclusive of all to my mind the Joseph Smith Papyrus which I described previously. I find nothing within the claims of Joseph Smith, the Three Witnesses or the Eight Witnesses which strike as proof against, least of all the ones you provided above which have a clear basis in Christianity.

So you don't believe in Mormonism but you think I should. I've read enough about Joseph Smith to believe he was a psychopath with delusions of grandeur. Psychopaths can be very charming and persuasive. But Smith coming from a family that was into various things like fortune telling and a family that had problems with alcohol I can understand how he could possibly become what he did. Here is an excerpt about him from Wiki:

Meanwhile Smith participated in a "craze for treasure hunting."[5] Beginning as a youth in the early 1820s, Smith was paid to act as a "seer," using seer stones in mostly unsuccessful attempts to locate lost items and buried treasure. [6] Smith's contemporaries describe Smith's procedure for using seer stones to hunt for treasure as placing the stone in a white stovepipe hat, putting his face over the hat to block the light, and then "seeing" the information in the reflections of the stone.[7] His preferred stone, which some said he also used later to translate the golden plates, was chocolate-colored and about the size of an egg, found in a deep well he helped dig for one of his neighbors.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

Smiths family also spent a lot of time reading Old Testament Stories. He seemed to be fixated in the OT. The OT is the OT. He spends a lot of time talking about the priesthood of Aaron. I'm not focused on the OT like Smith, I'm focused on the New Testament.
Since I believe Smith was a psychopath, I'm really not interested in the characters or witnesses that surrounded him any more then I'd be interested in what the followers of Jim Jones or David Koresh had to say.

Yes there were some miracles in the OT, but I don't see Cowdery or Harris performing miracles. Life was very boring back then. Maybe all the stuff that happened with Smith and his followers relieved their boredom.

And I've already pointed out how the Law of non-Contradiction prevents both Mormonism and mainline Christianity from both being correct. If Mormons want to believe God used to be a human but over time became God and is married and now lives in human form near a planet or star called Kolob that's their right but my bible doesn't say that.
 
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Summary of DOC's views up to now.

1.) Jesus didn't condone Slavery, even though the bible says otherwise.
2.) Fanciful bible stories are acceptable but fanciful mormon stories aren't.
3.) Reported witnesses of fanciful bible stories are reliable but first hand witnesses of fanciful mormon stories aren't.
4.) Murder rate, divorce rate, incarceration rate aren't good indicators of morality, but suicide rate is.
 
Yes there were some miracles in the OT, but I don't see Cowdery or Harris performing miracles. Life was very boring back then. Maybe all the stuff that happened with Smith and his followers relieved their boredom.
So you admit then that a fast growing, accepted religion can be based upon nothing more than lies and flights of fancy.

Therefore, using your EXACT SAME REASONING..
"Yes there were some miracles in the OT, but I don't see Jesus performing miracles. Life was very boring back then. Maybe all the stuff that happened with Jesus and his followers relieved their boredom."


You managed to just disprove christianity. Good job!
 
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And I've already pointed out how the Law of non-Contradiction prevents both Mormonism and mainline Christianity from both being correct.

Why do you keep bringing that up? The "law of non-contradiction" is irrelevant, because no one is saying you should believe both, they're asking why you find one to be more credible than the other.

Since I believe Smith was a psychopath

Of course you believe that. You are already emotionally invested in your own brand of Christianity, which makes you extremely cynical about Joseph Smith. On the other hand if you were a Mormon, you would give Joseph Smith the benefit of the doubt and have faith in him. The only difference between yourself and a Mormon is that you happened to have picked different beliefs to satisfy the same emotional needs.

Stop trying to disguise your desires as "reasons."
 
So you admit then that a fast growing, accepted religion can be based upon nothing more than lies and flights of fancy.

Therefore, using your EXACT SAME REASONING..
"Yes there were some miracles in the OT, but I don't see Jesus performing miracles. Life was very boring back then. Maybe all the stuff that happened with Jesus and his followers relieved their boredom."


You managed to just disprove christianity. Good job!

But Mormons didn't create what some people (like prolific reader Thomas Jefferson) say is the greatest system of morality the world has ever known. This greatest system of morality adds to the likelihood that Christianity is true. And you forget Mormonism needed Christianity in order to come into existence, Christianity didn't need Mormonism at all.
 
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