Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[DOC]

You keep refering to black preachers {Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson}, neither of whom were slaves or slave owners, and yet fail to explain why you think thier opinion on this topic is any more important than anyone else's.

So it is your opinion that the fact that Martin Luther King as a young man couldn't use the same restrooms and water fountains or eat at the same lunch counter as whites along with the fact that his relatives were probably slaves should have no effect on how he would view your slavery and the bible issue. It seems your opinion is Martin Luther King's emotional connection to the issue of slavery is no different than someone who is white and relatives are from England. I contend that would be ridiculous. And thus for you to imply that it is "not relevant" to this bible/slavery issue that Martin Luther King and Jesse Jackson and Ralph Abernathy and Al Sharpton decided devote their careers to the teachings of Christ is also ridiculous.

 

[Lothian]

I'm posting this from a Scandinavian country. How do you explain that my country has only 21% of respondents say they believe in a personal god, yet has a murder rate of one seventh that of the U.S?

By refusing to follow the example of Yahweh the mass murdering serial killer you are clearly all going to hell.

 

[joobz]

So it is your opinion that the fact that Martin Luther King as a young man couldn't use the same restrooms and water fountains or eat at the same lunch counter as whites along with the fact that his relatives were probably slaves should have no effect on how he would view your slavery and the bible issue.

Oh... I see. You equate racism with slavery. That somehow the opinions of black preachers regarding the bible trump my ability to read the bible. That's hardly the case, you know. There were multiple examples of slavery in history that went beyond just race. Racism and slavery were linked in america, but there's much more to it than just that.

I'm referring exclusively to the concept of one man owning another man's life. Either in part or in full. That was allowed by Jesus and he even used it as an example for how to treat eachother. Jesus was ok with that. That concept of slavery.


It's funny that you instantly link racism to this issue.

ETA: And no. I do not think people waste thier lives when they work towards social equality. The only waste is to pretend that the bible says something other than what is actually there.

 

[RobRoy]

It's funny that you instantly link racism to this issue.

Maybe it's an American mind set (though I don't know if DOC is American). I certainly make this mistake off the starting blocks, though it's clear that race and slavery are not mutually inclusive.

 

[joobz]

Maybe it's an American mind set (though I don't know if DOC is American). I certainly make this mistake off the starting blocks, though it's clear that race and slavery are not mutually inclusive.

As an American myself, I think it's an extremely easy thing to do. And I think DOC is counting on it. The problem is it's a dishonest point to raise in the current debate. DOC is (either consciously or subconsciously) catering to "white guilt" and trying to make the topic taboo. He clearly is trying to show that I'm being insensitive to MLK by showing that Jesus condoned racism. If he can make that connection, then he'll hope I'll back off that point.

The problem with this is that I fully reject the premise. Racism and slavery are not one in the same. That I can talk about slavery and Jesus' condoning of it and NOT at all need to refer to America's horrible history with it's practice. Certainly, the civil rights movement have used Christianity to teach equality. But this is entirely a separate issue all together and is entirely meant to derail the original point. Jesus condoned slavery. The bible demonstrates that. That's it. MLK or any other civil rights leader's opinion does not supersede what the bible says.

 

[DOC]

I'm posting this from a Scandinavian country. How do you explain that my country has only 21% of respondents say they believe in a personal god, yet has a murder rate of one seventh that of the U.S?

Yes, but you left out this sentence from the article.

In spite of this, 82.1%[2] of the Danish population remain members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and a large majority of people attend churches for baptisms, weddings, and funerals.

There could be a lot of reasons for the differences in murder rate. A more homogeneous population and thus less cultural differences, smaller gun ownership, less slums, less gangs, less of a wild west mentality. And if Denmark became more Christian your murder rate could become even lower.

And Scandinavian countries as a whole do have a higher suicide rate than the world average.

 

[Lothian]

So it is your opinion that the fact that Martin Luther King as a young man couldn't use the same restrooms and water fountains or eat at the same lunch counter as whites along with the fact that his relatives were probably slaves should have no effect on how he would view your slavery and the bible issue. It seems your opinion is Martin Luther King's emotional connection to the issue of slavery is no different than someone who is white and relatives are from England. I contend that would be ridiculous. And thus for you to imply that it is "not relevant" to this bible/slavery issue that Martin Luther King and Jesse Jackson and Ralph Abernathy and Al Sharpton decided devote their careers to the teachings of Christ is also ridiculous.

Doc I am sure you are a regular reader of playboy so will be familiar with this quote from the Jan. 1965 edition which ran an interview with Martin Luther King "The most pervasive mistake I have made was in believing that because our cause was just, we could be sure that the white ministers of the South, once their Christian consciences were challenged, would rise to our aid…. I ended up, of course, chastened and disillusioned."

It was not just the while restroom users that rejected Dr King, the Church did as well and it did so with biblical justification.

 

[RobRoy]

As an American myself, I think it's an extremely easy thing to do. And I think DOC is counting on it. The problem is it's a dishonest point to raise in the current debate. DOC is (either consciously or subconsciously) catering to "white guilt" and trying to make the topic taboo. He clearly is trying to show that I'm being insensitive to MLK by showing that Jesus condoned racism. If he can make that connection, then he'll hope I'll back off that point.

Gotcha.

In spite of this, 82.1%[2] of the Danish population remain members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and a large majority of people attend churches for baptisms, weddings, and funerals.

That they are members appears to be more of a cultural identity than it does a religious one when looked at through the response regarding God in general. That hardly makes the case for your position regarding such countries "failing".

There could be a lot of reasons for the differences in murder rate. A more homogeneous population and thus less cultural differences, smaller gun ownership, less slums, less gangs, less of a wild west mentality. And if Denmark became more Christian your murder rate could become even lower.

Yes, but nothing to do with God smiting them for their lack of belief, which was the point.

And Scandinavian countries as a whole do have a higher suicide rate than the world average.

So God punishes people who don't believe in Him by causing them to commit suicide?

I'm curious, are you ignoring my question from earlier or did you just not see it?

 

[six7s]

its not Winnie the Pooh.

OK... Cool. I suspect you're using some rational criteria to make this pronouncement. Please explain if and how that same rationale promotes Paul

Thank you

@DOC: Bump

 

[DOC]

Oh... I see. You equate racism with slavery. That somehow the opinions of black preachers regarding the bible trump my ability to read the bible. That's hardly the case, you know. There were multiple examples of slavery in history that went beyond just race. Racism and slavery were linked in america, but there's much more to it than just that.

The great grandfather of Martin Luther King was a slave.

6. Rev. Adam Daniel WILLIAMS was born on the 2 January 1863 in Penfield, Greene County, Georgia to slaves Willis and Lucretia Williams. and died 21 March 1931.

Ancestry of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
By Kimberly Powell, About.com

http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/dr_king.htm

Knowing this, do you think it is logical for the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King (and his father and grandfather who were also ministers) to devote their lives to the teachings of someone they believe condones slavery and become ordained sermon preaching ministers.

The same goes for Rev. Jesse Jackson, Rev.Ralph Abernathy, and Rev.Al Sharpton who all most likely had some ancestors who were slaves.

Why don't you think all of these very intelligent people (who have emotional and ancestral ties to slavery) never figured out your opinion that Jesus' teachings are not in the best interest of people (or their ancestors) who have experienced the pain of slavery.

 

[DOC]

So God punishes people who don't believe in Him by causing them to commit suicide?

God doesn't cause people to commit suicide, but the bible does talk about people perishing for lack of knowledge.

 

[DOC]

I'm curious, what specifically do you find objectionable regarding Harris and Cowdery? I'm reasonably familiar with both, and the other witnesses, so specifics are what I'm looking for.

What about David Whitmer? Do you have the same objections regarding the third of the Three Witnesses?

Finally, what about the Eight Witnesses?

I really don't have the time to properly answer this. If people read my posts about Harris and Cowdery they should be able to figure out why I think they don't make good witnesses. Your welcome to repost those posts and respond to them.

 

[RobRoy]

God doesn't cause people to commit suicide, but the bible does talk about people perishing for lack of knowledge.

But you're using the suicide rate as an argument for those people who have turned away from God, correct?

I really don't have the time to properly answer this. If people read my posts about Harris and Cowdery they should be able to figure out why I think they don't make good witnesses. Your welcome to repost those posts and respond to them.

Oh, I don't need indepth analysis of the two. As I said, I'm pretty familiar already with their biographies and their roles in the LDS church. I just want a couple of lines why you feel they aren't decent witnesses.

I would also like you to answer my other questions regarding the third of the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses.

 

[DOC]

Oh, I don't need indepth analysis of the two. As I said, I'm pretty familiar already with their biographies and their roles in the LDS church. I just want a couple of lines why you feel they aren't decent witnesses.

Cowdery talked to divining rods and believed his words affected the rod, and Harris thought Jesus turned into a deer.

Do you believe in Mormonism, and if not, why not?

 

[joobz]

Cowdery talked to divining rods and believed his words affected the rod, and Harris thought Jesus turned into a deer.

How do you know they didn't?

Jesus and the early christians believed in demons and other magical things were the cause of illness and mental disease. We know better now...

 

[joobz]

The great grandfather of Martin Luther King was a slave.

6. Rev. Adam Daniel WILLIAMS was born on the 2 January 1863 in Penfield, Greene County, Georgia to slaves Willis and Lucretia Williams. and died 21 March 1931.

Ancestry of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
By Kimberly Powell, About.com

http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/dr_king.htm

Knowing this, do you think it is logical for the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King (and his father and grandfather who were also ministers) to devote their lives to the teachings of someone they believe condones slavery and become ordained sermon preaching ministers.

The same goes for Rev. Jesse Jackson, Rev.Ralph Abernathy, and Rev.Al Sharpton who all most likely had some ancestors who were slaves.

Why don't you think all of these very intelligent people (who have emotional and ancestral ties to slavery) never figured out your opinion that Jesus' teachings are not in the best interest of people (or their ancestors) who have experienced the pain of slavery.

DOC, I addressed this dishonest appeal of yours.

As an American myself, I think it's an extremely easy thing to do. And I think DOC is counting on it. The problem is it's a dishonest point to raise in the current debate. DOC is (either consciously or subconsciously) catering to "white guilt" and trying to make the topic taboo. He clearly is trying to show that I'm being insensitive to MLK by showing that Jesus condoned racism. If he can make that connection, then he'll hope I'll back off that point.

The problem with this is that I fully reject the premise. Racism and slavery are not one in the same. That I can talk about slavery and Jesus' condoning of it and NOT at all need to refer to America's horrible history with it's practice. Certainly, the civil rights movement have used Christianity to teach equality. But this is entirely a separate issue all together and is entirely meant to derail the original point. Jesus condoned slavery. The bible demonstrates that. That's it. MLK or any other civil rights leader's opinion does not supersede what the bible says.

Now, either prove (using the bible) that Jesus didn't condone slavery or accept the fact that he did. Anyone else's opinion doesn't matter as opinion doesn't trump the reality of the text.

 

[RobRoy]

Cowdery talked to divining rods and believed his words affected the rod . . .

You mean the same rods which are sometimes called "Mosaic rods" or "rods of Aaron" because both Moses and his brother Aaron used them?

. . . and Harris thought Jesus turned into a deer.

Not to harp Moses, but he did claim he spoke to God in the form of a burning bush. How is this any different than Harris' claim of Jesus in the form of a deer (flame retardant underwear not withstanding)?

Do you believe in Mormonism, and if not, why not?

Nopers, I don't. After reviewing the material in some depth, I had a number of issues which included, but are not limited to, the anarchronisms found within The Book of Mormon, the striking resemblance of BoM places and map features to Northeast United States and Southeast Canada rather than South America (and the DNA evidence that goes along with this), and, most conclusive of all to my mind the Joseph Smith Papyrus which I described previously. I find nothing within the claims of Joseph Smith, the Three Witnesses or the Eight Witnesses which strike as proof against, least of all the ones you provided above which have a clear basis in Christianity.

 

[Niggle]

Delurk

As an American myself, I think it's an extremely easy thing to do. And I think DOC is counting on it. The problem is it's a dishonest point to raise in the current debate. DOC is (either consciously or subconsciously) catering to "white guilt" and trying to make the topic taboo. He clearly is trying to show that I'm being insensitive to MLK by showing that Jesus condoned racism. If he can make that connection, then he'll hope I'll back off that point.

I think he's actually trying to say that MLK's opinion trumps yours because his ancestors were slaves and DOC assumes yours weren't (which isn't a safe assumption, but DOC obviously doesn't consider that).

The problem with this is that I fully reject the premise. Racism and slavery are not one in the same. That I can talk about slavery and Jesus' condoning of it and NOT at all need to refer to America's horrible history with it's practice. Certainly, the civil rights movement have used Christianity to teach equality. But this is entirely a separate issue all together and is entirely meant to derail the original point. Jesus condoned slavery. The bible demonstrates that. That's it. MLK or any other civil rights leader's opinion does not supersede what the bible says.

Christianity was also used to justify slavery, specifically because of those passages you've been talking about. Race does not come into play in your examples, unlike the situation in America, because the slave owners and the slaves in the Bible would frequently have been of the same race, just different tribes (or even just different backgrounds, classes, origins, etc.). DOC either doesn't recognize that or is ignoring it.

DOC, do not mistake popularity for agreement. Yes, your threads tend to be very long. But it's mostly because you refuse to give up when you've clearly lost. I've been lurking in them for quite awhile now, making huge lists of books I want to read now to investigate what other posters are saying to you, because I want to learn more about the subjects being brought up. I have no interest in checking out your sources, mostly because I already know them (I was raised Catholic and spent a couple of years beyond that exploring other Christian sects and other religions trying to fill my own god-shaped hole). I'm not the greatest intellect in the world, but the sources you link to are so poorly written and so illogical that even I can see right through them.

In short, you aren't winning these epic battles. You aren't making any converts. You're not driving them away as effectively as Kurious_Kathy, but your arrogance makes you almost as bad. You don't prove your own points at all, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone else post to defend your points, either.

Back to lurking and list-making.

 

[ThatSoundAgain]

Yes, but you left out this sentence from the article.

In spite of this, 82.1%[2] of the Danish population remain members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and a large majority of people attend churches for baptisms, weddings, and funerals.

I'm very aware of this, since I live here. But if the solution to stay on god's good side is just being nominally Christian and having ceremonies a few times during your life, and otherwise staying out of church, you should have said so. Heck, if you can show that the low murder rate is solely due to having an irrelevant state church, that's an idea I think will sell much easier than the fundamentalist solutions you've proposed thus far.

Church attendance on an average Sunday in Denmark, by the way, is ~2.5%.

You'd maybe like to explain the murder rates vs Christianity figures of, say, Japan next?

(Hint: Christians in Japan make up a whopping 0.7% of the population, yet the murder rate is one of the lowest in the world - one eleventh of the US).

There could be a lot of reasons for the differences in murder rate. A more homogeneous population and thus less cultural differences, smaller gun ownership, less slums, less gangs, less of a wild west mentality. And if Denmark became more Christian your murder rate could become even lower.

Oh, I see - so there are other factors in play than what particular brand of religion is dominant? Does that only count when the numbers don't support your "prediction"?

I propose that we work on these other factors before dreaming up fantasy solutions and doomsday prophesies.

And Scandinavian countries as a whole do have a higher suicide rate than the world average.

True. Can you think of any other factors than lack of Christianity for this? Or does these figures count where the murder rate doesn't because they fit your world view?

 

[joobz]

True. Can you think of any other factors than lack of Christianity for this? Or does these figures count where the murder rate doesn't because they fit your world view?

If there is one take home message that we can learn form DOC it's, "Christianity is great if you ignore all contrary evidence."