So Why Is The Gospel Still An Offense?

[Radically Rethinking]

But anyone is welcome to jump in with a story. Are we all actually the decendents of Adam and Eve?

The answer I've heard the most often is that Adam and Eve's children all had to interbreed, since there was no one else around, but this was OK because God hadn't yet handed down the prohibition against incest.

 

[TraneWreck]

<chuckle> You had me goin' there.. I was scratching my head.


Actually, there ARE others mentioned in the scriptures aside from just Adam and Eve. Just not all at one time.
So a particularly knowledgeable and wiggly Christian can squirm out of your question.

In other words, there already (according to scripture) were people outside of Eden. Additionally, God created more people than just Adam and Eve. They were just the first on that particular day or somethin'

What really gets tricky though, is that by eating the fruit, Adam and Eve then somehow- magically- Like killing King Vampire and all vampires bitten by him are affected...- made everyone else a smarty sinner too.
Which I cannot figure that one out if one sticks to a literal interpretation.

It's quite clear that the story of Adam and Eve is a hodge podge of many different stories. And not a well woven one at that.

I've heard that explanation before, but it means that Adam and Eve aren't, in fact, the parents of all humanity, as many christians claim.

I think the fruit of good and evil (Andy Dick, perhaps?) is a sort of pandora's box story. Somehow evil is released into the world. Of course, it's much less direct and cogent than the Pandora story.

And if there were people outside of Eden, were they under the protective auro of innocence before that double-crossing harlot Eve ruined it for all of us?

I agree with you, it's a bizarre and unintelligible tale.

 

[TraneWreck]

Actually no there is only one path to know God, it's through Jesus and only him. He is the one who reveals the truth to our soul. And yes I think he must reach an intellectual or indivual on a level they can understand. How he does it I'm not sure but I do believe faith only comes by hearing God's Word. It's up to each of us to believe and receive it so I do not know what it might take for someone to get to that point.

People believe all kinds of things that people teach but for some the Bible just doesn't fit what they want so they throw it out of there list of books to go by. I say this is a big mistake but I guess it's up to each person to choose for themselves. Not all will get it, I know that but I can hope so. Do you believe that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved or don't you? I do!

And if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would be saying the same thing about Mohammed.

 

[HansMustermann]

Do you believe that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved or don't you? I do!

The point has been made before, and probably better, but here goes again: and you don't see how that would actually encourage lack of morals?

Someone could use the 7 deadly sins list and the 10 commandments as a checklist of sins to do for all his life. Murder, rape, steal, show no compassion whatsoever, etc. Let's throw in paedophilia and a abortions too, since they seem special to you. But then if on his deathbed he goes, "boohoo, I accept that Jesus already died for all that", he's apparently good for eternal reward.

At the risk of Goodwinning the thread, how do you know Hitler didn't pray to Jesus before he died?

How about Goebbels? Not only he was instrumental in the whole monstrosity, but he and his wife poisoned their own children the night their Fuehrer died. Apparently a world without Hitler wasn't good enough for their children. They gave the children morphine shots to get them asleep, then Martha herself stuffed her own children with cianide pills, under her husband's eyes. The oldest daughter, aged 12, apparently struggled against the injection, so they beat her up and poisoned her.

But you're telling me that even such an atrocity can be good enough for eternal reward, if one only prays to Jesus afterwards?

WTF? Then what base do all the fundies have to tell me that I'm immoral or outright evil if I'm an atheist? They're the ones who think _any_ evil is as good as forgiven if you just invoke Jesus. _I_ don't have such a lullaby for my conscience.

 

[fromdownunder]

Sorry I do not know what % may be truly saved Christians, but Jesus did say narrow is the way and few will find it. I do get sad when I realize this and it does appear more humans who were born will not be in heaven. I'm thinking that if God has 2/3rds of the angels who did not rebel then he may save 1/3rd of the human race. At least I hope at least that many can be saved but I am afraid it does not look good.

So because, according to you, God chose to save only 1/3rd of the human race, beecause the angels revolted in Heaven. Nice one God...

That is why I must speak about Jesus in hopes he may reach some more before it's too late. Everyday we hear of lives being lost and all I can hope is some know Christ. It does matter for eternity but I'll let you decide.

..and that you can change God's mind about how many he will save.

Got it.

Norm

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Jesus himself said if the law had been perfect then he wouldn't have had to make a new covenant. I take that as he did not like it either but he was trying to get people to live Godly and when they rebelled they got it. Geeze if these were the OT days none of us would be alive let alone saved!

So God made an imperfect law? Don't you get points taken off for that in Universe Making 101?

 

[Holler Hoojer]

Kathy, I see you focused on abortions, but completely missed other parts of the question. And an important one is: homosexuality.

According to actual research and very visible on MRI scans: those people are physically wired like the opposite sex, and the triggered lobes and reactions are those of the opposite sex. That wiring is something formed while they're in the womb.

Do you understand that?

Let me repeat it: a _lot_ of men are born with a woman-type brain, and a _lot_ of women are born with a man-type brain. For no sin or choice of their own.

(Unless you want to argue that it's possible to assign moral responsibility to a foetus.)

Why does God make these people like that, then promise to burn them in Hell for something _He_ did to them? Why does He tell other people to victimize them?

Or if it's a "bug", why doesn't God fix it instead of blaming the victims? Why doesn't He accept responsibility for what _He_ caused to those people?

The whole thing is as stupid as if, say, Microsoft tried to sue you because their programs crashed on your computer.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but I'd like to clarify this point a bit. In spite of the fact that I really work at sending up religious fanatics, I do believe in nurturing the spiritual side and, as part of that, I read lots of religious texts. The Torah is clear (not a little clear, but very clear) about the question of homosexuality. It says not to have anal sex with another guy. That's it. No more, no less. BJs aren't mentioned. Handjobs aren't. Lesbians don't get any coverage at all. All this other stuff was just made up by the Apostle Paul who had some serious issues with sexuality.

 

[truethat]

I wonder why Kathy doesn't address my comment which was in direct reply to her question when I've posted it several times.

Could it be she has no answer?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Know what I love?

Being totally ignored.

 

[TraneWreck]

Know what I love?

Being totally ignored.

You must really enjoy prayer.

 

[HansMustermann]

I don't mean to be pedantic, but I'd like to clarify this point a bit. In spite of the fact that I really work at sending up religious fanatics, I do believe in nurturing the spiritual side and, as part of that, I read lots of religious texts. The Torah is clear (not a little clear, but very clear) about the question of homosexuality. It says not to have anal sex with another guy. That's it. No more, no less. BJs aren't mentioned. Handjobs aren't. Lesbians don't get any coverage at all. All this other stuff was just made up by the Apostle Paul who had some serious issues with sexuality.

I thought Onan was also punished for spilling his seed on the ground, instead of getting a woman pregnant with it. One of the _very_ few guys killed directly by God for it, and that guy usually does stuff by intermediaries. So I'm guessing it must really piss Him off.

I'd think that puts a bit more restrictions on how one uses that seed.

Still, even bypassing the "must get someone pregnant" part, let's focus on the spilling the seed part. So... is a BJ only ok as long as he swallows?

Not sure how you'd make masturbation kosher, though.

 

[tsig]

Well I think you should rethink your stance on this one. No one wants to face the white throne of justice. That day will not be fun and I just hope I do not have to face some of the people I have hurt or that have hurt me, especially my gramps. People just do not realize how much damage can happen to a person if they have been a vicitim of a pedophile. It takes a supernatural kind of love to forgive these guys too and I can only forgive these guys through Christ who forgave me. And I'm not referring to when I was a victim but when I grew up and became a pretty worldly woman. I guess I confused love for something else for along time?

And I am not saying I think these pedophile guys should be free to roam the streets either. They need to be put away where they cannot touch another person like that. My gramps died before he was found out or I would have expected him to go to jail and hopefully he would have repented but unfortunately he died when I was still quite young. Why some of these types of predators never repent is beyond my understanding too. How can they not know what they are doing is wrong and evil? Sorry I am rambling but having conversations here stirs up alot in me. I am very familiar with the affects of vicitimisation and suffering but I do NOT blame it on God. He's the one that will repay a man evil for evil or good for good but if you are claiming to be good on your own merit it does not work. We can only avoid Gods judgement through accepting Christ, there is no other way.

So the only way you can get even with your grandfather is to believe he will be punished by god.

 

[Macoy]

The point has been made before, and probably better, but here goes again: and you don't see how that would actually encourage lack of morals?

Someone could use the 7 deadly sins list and the 10 commandments as a checklist of sins to do for all his life. Murder, rape, steal, show no compassion whatsoever, etc. Let's throw in paedophilia and a abortions too, since they seem special to you. But then if on his deathbed he goes, "boohoo, I accept that Jesus already died for all that", he's apparently good for eternal reward.

At the risk of Goodwinning the thread, how do you know Hitler didn't pray to Jesus before he died?

How about Goebbels? Not only he was instrumental in the whole monstrosity, but he and his wife poisoned their own children the night their Fuehrer died. Apparently a world without Hitler wasn't good enough for their children. They gave the children morphine shots to get them asleep, then Martha herself stuffed her own children with cianide pills, under her husband's eyes. The oldest daughter, aged 12, apparently struggled against the injection, so they beat her up and poisoned her.

But you're telling me that even such an atrocity can be good enough for eternal reward, if one only prays to Jesus afterwards?

WTF? Then what base do all the fundies have to tell me that I'm immoral or outright evil if I'm an atheist? They're the ones who think _any_ evil is as good as forgiven if you just invoke Jesus. _I_ don't have such a lullaby for my conscience.

Christians claim credit for a drop in the numbers of annual human sacrifices.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

<snip>

Not sure how you'd make masturbation kosher, though.

You have to have it approved by the shochet (qv).

 

[fromdownunder]

Your god kills unborn babies. Thousands every day. But your willful ignorance won't let you acknowledge it.

I will just pick up on this one, so that it does not get lost in the shuffle.

Wiki (yes, I know it is not the most reliable source of information on the planet) suggests that around 25% of pregnancies are natuarally aborted in the first six weeks (Kathy - "natural or spontaneous" abortion means no human intervention, in case you wondered), and I have seen figures around this level documented elsewhere (not chasing these up at the moment though).

Spontaneous abortion can occur within days/hours of the pregnancy occuring, and the woman would never even have known that she was pregnant in the first place. We will never know the precise figure but it could certainly be higher than 18/25%.

Based on this, there has probably in the vicinity of One Billion spontaneous abortions in the last century or so (I did the math once, but cannot be bothered looking for it)

So, Kathy, you better not believe that the "soul" begins at conception, because if you do, God has "destroyed perhaps One Billion souls within seconds and six weeks of their "soul" coming into existance. That really makes Him a bit of a bastard.

Norm

 

[TraneWreck]

Not sure how you'd make masturbation kosher, though.

Just don't dip your balls in milk products.

 

[MIKILLINI]

I meant Kathy, sorry, it was unclear.

But anyone is welcome to jump in with a story. Are we all actually the decendents of Adam and Eve?

According to the bible we are. It became virtually another "do over" with Noah's family after the flood subsided.
There seems to have been others around after the flood as well that were not Noah's family. God told Noah and his son's to go forth and multiply, I figured who Noah would go forth with, but his sons?

 

[TraneWreck]

According to the bible we are. It became virtually another "do over" with Noah's family after the flood subsided.
There seems to have been others around after the flood as well that were not Noah's family. God told Noah and his son's to go forth and multiply, I figured who Noah would go forth with, but his sons?

Then who was Cain afraid of? The mark was meant to keep people from killing him, who were those people?

I guess the same issue exists with Noah.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Just don't dip your balls in milk products.

Isn't don't boil your balls in goats' milk?

 

[fromdownunder]

Well, one good thing came out of the flood - we were allowed to start eating meat. And one good thing came out of the New Covenant. We were allowed to start eating shellfish. mmmmm Oysters and Crayfish and Prawns oh my.

Norm