So Why Is The Gospel Still An Offense?

[Ryokan]

Josephus' documents were doctored centuries later.

Not to mention that Josephus was born in 37AD. He couldn't have been a witness.

Who told you Mary was born without sin? That's a big fat lie that Catholics were taught but it's not biblical at all.

Christianity is the one true religion

Even the Catholic part of Christianity?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Oh, and every piece of documentary "evidence" of the historic existence of Jesus have been discredited. Other threads have dealt with this.

If you choose to believe that lie then go ahead but I never will for I know the truth!

 

[kurious_kathy]

Not to mention that Josephus was born in 37AD. He couldn't have been a witness.

Do you really believe the apostles would have died a martyrs death if Jesus wasn't the Messiah? They died for their cause and I find it very unlikely they would do that if they did not know what it was they were fighting for.

And you guys cannot discount the cannon of scripture as nothing as it has been proven to be true history and accurate! I pray the Lord lifts the veil from your eyes!

 

[Hokulele]

Do you really believe the apostles would have died a martyrs death if Jesus wasn't the Messiah? They died for their cause and I find it very unlikely they would do that if they did not know what it was they were fighting for.

The same argument can be made for the members of the Heaven's Gate cult.

So, are you taking my challenge, or does your open-mindedness apply only to others?

 

[proudnonbbeliever]

The truth is that you shouldnt eat all those mushrooms you finnd in the paddocks.

Obviously youre hallucinating and dellusional comes from this and not ignorance, or fear of finding out you believe bs

 

[Ryokan]

Do you really believe the apostles would have died a martyrs death if Jesus wasn't the Messiah? They died for their cause and I find it very unlikely they would do that if they did not know what it was they were fighting for.

The terrorists that martyred themselves in 9/11 also died for their cause. Does that mean Allah is for real as well?

Earlier this year, a Tibetan Buddhist monk set himself on fire and killed himself to protest the Chinese occupation. I guess that means Buddhism is true as well?

For thousands of years, people have willingly died for causes that may or may not have been right.

 

[proudnonbbeliever]

Do you really believe the apostles would have died a martyrs death if Jesus wasn't the Messiah? They died for their cause and I find it very unlikely they would do that if they did not know what it was they were fighting for.

For some reason im thinking of those planes crashing into the wtc...


Oh my FSM! Mohammed was right!

 

[Soapy Sam]

Josephus doesn't say Christ was divine.

The fragmentary documentary evidence that the man existed say that he was a man, not a god. (Remember this was at a time when the Roman Emperor was declared "divine".)

If such a man did exist and was executed on a cross, the one thing I can say with confidence about him is that he's dead.

If he left a philosophy behind , that's another story. Ideas can be harder to kill.
But I tend to see Paul as the evangelist rather than Christ.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

...

Why would I even want to talk to you?

 

[paximperium]

If you choose to believe that lie then go ahead but I never will for I know the truth!

How do you know it's a lie?

You've already clearly said you're ignorant about the evidence and are relying on someone elses claim. Why are you so closed-minded?

 

[Piggy]

Over and over I hear people stating mostly it’s the Christians they find offensive rather than Christ. If you judge Christ by his followers then you are not seeing him right since Jesus was the only sinless being who ever lived.

Yes, it's the evangelists (not all Xians) who bug me.

I know why they do what they do. If I believed that unsaved people would be tortured for eternity, I'd want to help them out, too.

Doesn't keep them from being annoying, or make me any less inclined to want them to leave me the heck alone, tho.

Hare Krishnas, Mormon missionaries, Jehova's Witnesses, Moonies, I don't intend to let any of them crash my day just because they're deluded.

And I don't judge Jesus by his (misinformed) followers. I judge Jesus by what legitimate scholarship tells us about him.

But evangelicals have no time for legitimate scholarship. They prefer their fantasy Jesus. They can have him.

 

[Piggy]

Do you really believe the apostles would have died a martyrs death if Jesus wasn't the Messiah? They died for their cause and I find it very unlikely they would do that if they did not know what it was they were fighting for.

So Maurice Applewhite was right because his followers died for him?

Jim Jones was right because his followers died for him?

 

[tsig]

It's hard to try to put ourselves in Gods place because trying to grasp the meaning of what holiness looks like or is well it just isn't that easy. But I guess if I was a Holy God I would know I had to judge sin unless someone accepts my way out which is through Christ. Jesus paid the penalty for us so we do not have to go before the great white throne of judgement. But if you reject that gift then you deny God and he has the right to judge. He's God we are not. If we could only accept God on his terms, that seems to be the biggest quest. Why worry about hell if you can avoid it? The choice is ours because God gave us free will to choose him or not. I do chose to accept him.

God gave us free will but will fry us if we use it. "Some catch, that catch 22"

 

[tsig]

Troll is too harsh.

But to KK, I think you believe that you are getting some (heavenly?) credit in flogging a dead horse here. This is not true. You would get a better return on investment walking the streets and knocking on doors.

Esp. if she wore the right clothes.

 

[calebprime]

So Maurice Applewhite was right because his followers died for him?

Jim Jones was right because his followers died for him?

proudnonbeliever was quoting KK, but wasn't using the quote function.

just so ya know.

 

[Piggy]

proudnonbeliever was quoting KK, but wasn't using the quote function.

just so ya know.

Thanks!

 

[Fiona]

First of all how can a person not beleive in heaven or hell? This makes no sense to me since God planted eternity in our hearts.

Without wishing to address anything else you are saying can we just pause here for a moment?

As I read your statement you are saying that you have a conception of the nature of man which is at odds with the facts. Many of us are atheists and do not believe in heaven or hell. That is a fact and you know it is a fact. Some of those who preach religion try to get around that by denying it: they say that atheists are angry at god or some such formulation. This allows them to maintain the belief you outlined above and I am supposing that makes you and others like you comfortable. But it is a lie Kathy. And in your heart you know it is a lie. Why are you angry with the facts? Why do you reject what you know to be true even though it condemns you to ignorance and also to ineffectiveness?

 

[RandomJSF]

My apologies for quoting from a while back in this thread, and furthermore for likely reiterating what others have already posted in response, but as I've already dropped one long-winded response into this thread, I guess I don't really see the harm in another.

First of all how can a person not beleive in heaven or hell? This makes no sense to me since God planted eternity in our hearts.

What makes no sense to me is your statement that god has planted eternity in our hearts. How does that relate to a positive or negative effect on a person's belief in heaven or hell? What does that even MEAN?

I find it easy to not believe in hell. Even if I accept, for the sake of argument, that god is real, and that Christ was his son who died on the cross to absolve us of our sins, I still have issues with the idea of hell. I cannot conceive of how a supposedly omniscient and omnipotent being can be so egotistical that he would condemn even a kind and generous person to an eternal torture just for failing to believe. Does your god need validation that badly? Why should an omnipotent and omniscient being even CARE about whether people believe? How does a nonbeliever hurt him in any appreciable way?

Not to mention that damnation to hell is for eternity, with no chance of pardon or parole. Once you have been damned to hell, no amount of repentance, no amount of prayers, and no amount of adulation will redeem you in the eyes of god. In hell, you have been cast forever out of his sight, he cannot see you repent, nor would he care even if he could. Setting aside the logical problem with the idea of being removed from the sight on an omniscient and omnipotent being, the idea that damnation is forever is abhorrent to me.

So I choose not to believe in hell on the grounds that no just god, gifted with omniscience and omnipotence, could possibly be so severely flawed as to either create a place such as hell, or allow it to continue to exist.

I would make a similar argument against the idea of heaven. The concept that simply accepting god and Christ as being real, and asking them to forgive your mortal transgressions, will grant you a spot in a place of eternal bliss is equally abhorrent as the idea of hell. I find the idea evil that a good and kind person -- who spent their life in service to others, giving of themselves as much as human nature allows -- would be refused a spot in heaven for the crime of disbelief, while a selfish pig -- whose life has been spent taking everything he can from others, and has merely cowed in awe of god and so worshiped him -- will be granted that spot in heaven.

I cannot bring myself to believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing being would be so horribly unjust. The cognitive dissonance is too profound.

Now that I've pounded all that out onto the page, I think I'll end with the following:

If you choose to believe that lie then go ahead but I never will for I know the truth!

At this point, I cannot help but hear Poe's Law echoing around in my thoughts. That is such a trite reply, a response that is so very common among fundamentals. We are told to believe in the existence of god through mere faith and the words of a pieced-together book, but when we provide any form of evidence that brings even the smallest piece of that book into question, the religious person dismisses it with that standard puerile response.

You are asking us, as atheists and agnostics, to open our minds to what you believe to be the truth, while refusing to open your minds to anything we have to say.

Frankly, it boggles the mind.

~~ Random

 

[Evolved Wookie]

If you choose to believe that lie then go ahead but I never will for I know the truth!

= "I'm not listening, la, la, la..."

It really does amaze me how often fundies sound like they belong in the playground.

Kathy, the gospel doesn't offend me. It bores me, but it'd have to contain some merit (either philosophical, charismatic or poetic) to qualify for being offensive.

The way that it is used by the intellectually cowardly and dishonest to justify their fear of responsibility is offensive, especially when combined with the baseless smug sense of entitlement and self-importance of which you are a glowing example.

Congratulations Kathy; you are the apotheosis of blind, idiotic, thoughtless rhetoric and the abdication of the responsibility of thinking for yourself.

...oh - as a bonus, however - it's hilarious!

 

[elbe]

I think Jesus is very pissed off when a Catholic prays to Mary!

So Jesus hates it when people acknowledge his mother and wants to prevent her from having any glory, huh? That's some example he's setting.