Gaza homes destruction 'wanton'

[Tin Foil Timothy]

This is exactly why I speak up about the Zionist Apologists on this forum using strawman tactics because they've no other argument and have to invent their own.... The following is a classic strawman.

As you can see below the Zionist Apologist in question demands I stop saying everyone that died was 'innocent'.

You'll also notice I said nothing of the sort in the statement he/she was responding to.

I shall now expose this purveyor of cheap and transparent strawman tactics .....

And what's really absurdly ironic is that he has the cheek to call *my statement* a strawman.

The bottom line is that the behavior of Israel against the innocent Gazan people was atrocious and disgusting.

Bolding mine. Can you stop saying everyone that died was 'innocent'? You are in no position to deterimine their innocence. It's like someone saying 'Everyone who died was guilty.' It's an emotive stawman and really does not add anything. (Children are exempt from this, as I feel they are the
closest thing to actual innocence.)

/peeve

So Mr/Mrs IDB87 ...

Can you tell us where I have said everyone that died was innocent? Maybe now you've had chance to actually read my statement you quoted you can see I was only talking about the innocent Gazans. I made no mention of anyone guilty of attacking Israel and worthy of a response.


but .... maybe you were referring to another post of mine and inadvertently quoted the wrong one? If that's the case IDB87 perhaps you would like to link us to the post where I have said that everyone who died from an Israeli attack on Gaza ( or anywhere else ) was innocent.

Time and time again the Zionist Apologists use strawman tactics, twisted words and even complete untruths to try and discredit their debate opponents. Every time they get exposed and discredit themselves.

IDB87 once you've provided evidence I have claimed all victims of Israel are innocent I shall respond to the rest of your low quality attempt at contending my previous post. But pleae hurry as I've skimmed through and it's as flimsy as the evidence of WMDs in Iraq!!!

 

[IDB87]

IDB87 once you've provided evidence I have claimed all victims of Israel are innocent I shall respond to the rest of your low quality attempt at contending my previous post. But pleae hurry as I've skimmed through and it's as flimsy as the evidence of WMDs in Iraq!!!

The bottom line is that the behavior of Israel against the innocent Gazan people was atrocious and disgusting. And then Israel made themselves even more vile by claiming that it's the fault of Hamas that Israel is slaughtering Palestinian civilians.

OK, so, the slaughtered Palestinians were not innocent?

Of course there were innocent people who were effected by the bombings who weren't killed, but we -were- talking about the tactics Israel uses, which is the precision bombing of Hamas targets, which inadvertently kill civilians. Maybe I'm wrong, but it is your view that those civilians were killed needlessly, and it is 'atrocious and disgusting' because they are innocent in the conflict.

Could you clarify?

This is splitting hairs, and is the exact problem I was trying to avoid. Consider that claim retracted.

 

[IDB87]

Still waiting TFT..

Or shall we add this thread to the list of questions/topics you wish to avoid?

 

[mortimer]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it is your view that those civilians were killed needlessly, and it is 'atrocious and disgusting' because they are innocent in the conflict.

I believe it is TFT's position that Israel purposely targets civilians.

 

[IDB87]

I believe it is TFT's position that Israel purposely targets civilians.

His position is well known.

He has stated many times Israel has a right to exist, and by extension, a right to defend herself. I'm just trying to figure out what TFT thinks an appropriate response would be, rather than what we witnessed in Jan/Feb of this year. So far, he has suggested the IDF march ground forces into Gaza each time a rocket is fired, to arrest the militants who fired the rocket(s). This will apparently limit collateral damage, or something.

 

[funk de fino]

why did Texan boys and girls go to war in afghanistan when UBL atacked New York????

Aren't you forgetting someone?

 

[DC]

Here, DC, this is an Israeli housing development in the West Bank -- do you think the Jews living here need to vacate?

[qimg]http://www.centralpc.org/photo/israeltrip/119_19.jpg [/qimg]
Old City of Jerusalem, Jewish Quarter (unified by Israel in 1967 six-day war)



What makes you think they are "outside" Israel? Just because they are living on lands that happen to be across the 1949 Cease-Fire Lines? When did those Armistice lines become sacrosanct "borders" in your book?


Israel is in a position to demand they stop -- right now.

why did you pst a picture from Jerusalem and not from one of those many settlements that was build on other peoples land?

i guess for you, one side can do whatever they want.....

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

His position is well known.

He has stated many times Israel has a right to exist, and by extension, a right to defend herself. I'm just trying to figure out what TFT thinks an appropriate response would be, rather than what we witnessed in Jan/Feb of this year. So far, he has suggested the IDF march ground forces into Gaza each time a rocket is fired, to arrest the militants who fired the rocket(s). This will apparently limit collateral damage, or something.

Of course Israel has a right to defend itself. Everyone Has the right defend themselves.

What Israel does NOT have a right to do is racially persecute people, It doesn't' have a right to implement apartheid, it doesn't have a right to ghettoize the Gazans by controlling the borders, it doesn't' have a right to periodically slaughter a whole bunch of Innocent Palestinians including children.

You talk of defense? The behavior of Israel is the behavior of a racist country whose agenda is to hound and harass the Palestinians by various method ranging from apartheid to murder in order make life in Palestine hell for them. This is NOT the behavior of a country solely concerned about defending itself. None of that is an appropriate response. The recent December/January slaughter is NOT an appropriate response. both attacks on Lebanon were not appropriate responses.

Never forget .... The Palestinians have aright to defend themselves.

And whatever your viewpoint, you should at least consider that the typical over the top violent responses by Israel is only making things worse. The recent attacks on Gaza are only going to intensify a retaliation, if someone attacked me like Israel Attacked Gaza over Christmas I'd fire even more rockets at them. Wouldn't you?

 

[funk de fino]

The recent attacks on Gaza are only going to intensify a retaliation, if someone attacked me like Israel Attacked Gaza over Christmas I'd fire even more rockets at them. Wouldn't you?

Then you are just as stupid as Hamas.

 

[balrog666]

Then you are just as stupid as Hamas.

Seconded.

 

[IDB87]

Of course Israel has a right to defend itself. Everyone Has the right defend themselves.

Do you honestly believe marching ground troops into Gaza each time Hamas (or whichever group) fires a rocket, with the sole purpose of ARRESTING those militants, is a smart thing to do? Do you honestly believe this will not result in a reoccupation of Gaza?

What Israel does NOT have a right to do is racially persecute people

Can you give some specific examples of racial persecution throughout Israel and Palestine? If you apply the persecution to the Palestinians, can that same persecution be applied to the Arab Israelis? If not, is it still racial persecution?

It doesn't' have a right to implement apartheid

Apartheid? Are you talking about Apartheid in the West Bank, or within Israel? I have not seen Apartheid inside of Israel's borders, on any level. The case of apartheid is usually made in the West Bank, but is that -really- apartheid, or is that just a matter of convoluted borders? This to me is like saying America is practicing Apartheid because it seperates itself from mexico by a physical barrier - despite the fact that there are American citizens who are hispanic.

it doesn't have a right to ghettoize the Gazans by controlling the borders

Israel has a right to protect the borders it shares with Gaza, and they control the airspace/sea space because the government of Gaza is a terrorist organization.

Article 42 of the U.N. charter states that the U.N,

may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces

So, clearly, the use of a blockade is not illegal in every case.

Article 51 of the U.N. charter also states that,

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.

I believe the legality of the Gaza blockade rests on the shoulders of the security council. Whether it has been condemned or not does not equate to legality.

it doesn't' have a right to periodically slaughter a whole bunch of Innocent Palestinians including children.

What, are they trying to meet a quota or something? That statement is trite.

The recent December/January slaughter is NOT an appropriate response. both attacks on Lebanon were not appropriate responses.

What would an appropriate response be?

Never forget .... The Palestinians have aright to defend themselves.

Absolutley. Does this mean they can target the innocent Israeli children, and elderly, and shoppers at a mall, people commuting to work on a bus, or people dining in a pizza shop? How about violating settler children with their rifles? Or smashing in little girls heads? The list of atrocities in the name of freedom go on and on. Such actions are terroristic in nature, and are infact warcrimes.

What is stopping Hamas from using all of their resources to target the IDF and actual occupation?

And whatever your viewpoint, you should at least consider that the typical over the top violent responses by Israel is only making things worse.

That statement reeks of capitulation - if only Israel wasn't so nasty they wouldn't make enemies. The purpose of war is not to kill your enemy, but to break his will to fight. Israel's response was more damaging to Hamas (as was visible by the utter chaos in the Hamas command structure, and government) then it was to Israel's safety and reputation. Has Hamas lost the will to fight? Doubtful - but if you think they can sustain a prolonged brawl with Israel is naive.

The recent attacks on Gaza are only going to intensify a retaliation

Sadistic. There comes a point when fighting is no longer an option. When do you think Hamas will reach that conclusion?

if someone attacked me like Israel Attacked Gaza over Christmas I'd fire even more rockets at them. Wouldn't you?

Fire even more rockets at them, being the opposition's military, not their civilians, right?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Then you are just as stupid as Hamas.

And you are just as stupid as Israel.

 

[webfusion]

why did you post a picture from Jerusalem and not from one of those many settlements that was build on other peoples land?

According to the Arabs, they want Israel to withdraw from EVERY CENTIMETER of land beyond the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines.

That would, ipso facto, include the Old City of Jerusalem.
And the Jewish Quarter of same.
(yes, the Western Wall, too)

There is no difference, in the eyes of many Arabs, between the 'settlement' of Petah Tikva and the 'settlement' of Ariel.

I guess for you, one side can do whatever they want.....

What do the Palestinians want?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Do you honestly believe marching ground troops into Gaza each time Hamas (or whichever group) fires a rocket, with the sole purpose of ARRESTING those militants, is a smart thing to do? Do you honestly believe this will not result in a reoccupation of Gaza?

Do you honestly believe that carpet bombing vast areas of gaza and slaughtering vast numbers of innocent Palestinians and casuing a humanitarian crisis for those who manage to surive the onslaught is a smart thing to do? DO you thin kthat sort of actions both the actiosn of a country who wants peace andand action that is likely to brign forward peace?

Can you give some specific examples of racial persecution throughout Israel and Palestine? If you apply the persecution to the Palestinians, can that same persecution be applied to the Arab Israelis? If not, is it still racial persecution?

Oh for god's sake. The apartheid in the west bank is common knowledge.

Apartheid? Are you talking about Apartheid in the West Bank, or within Israel? I have not seen Apartheid inside of Israel's borders, on any level. The case of apartheid is usually made in the West Bank, but is that -really- apartheid, or is that just a matter of convoluted borders? This to me is like saying America is practicing Apartheid because it seperates itself from mexico by a physical barrier - despite the fact that there are American citizens who are hispanic.

Absolutely ridiculous analogy. Did you honestly expect that one to be respecte4d? America isn't building illegal settlements in Mexico and building roads only for Americans in Mexico or stealing land of the Mexicans

Israel has a right to protect the borders it shares with Gaza, and they control the airspace/sea space because the government of Gaza is a terrorist organization.

protecting borders is one thing. Ghettoising the Gazans is another

I believe the legality of the Gaza blockade rests on the shoulders of the security council. Whether it has been condemned or not does not equate to legality.

I could care less whether it's legal. This is about people. Homosexuality was once illegal

That statement reeks of capitulation - if only Israel wasn't so nasty they wouldn't make enemies. The purpose of war is not to kill your enemy, but to break his will to fight. Israel's response was more damaging to Hamas (as was visible by the utter chaos in the Hamas command structure, and government) then it was to Israel's safety and reputation. Has Hamas lost the will to fight? Doubtful - but if you think they can sustain a prolonged brawl with Israel is naive.

You are making the grave mistake of making this an Israel v. Hamas conflict. It's not it's an israel persecuting the Palestinians conflict. Hamas came and hamas will go. It's insignificant in the bigger picture. The Palestinians haev sustained a 60 year 'brawl' with Israel

Sadistic. There comes a point when fighting is no longer an option. When do you think Hamas will reach that conclusion? [/qutoe]
And when do you think Israel will reach that conclusion

Fire even more rockets at them, being the opposition's military, not their civilians, right?

I never condone attacking civilians. FYI: 3 Israeli ordinary citizens were killed over Christmas. How many hundreds of ordinary Palestinians were killed. a few hundred children for starters.

 

[webfusion]

Just a note - Israel did not "carpet bomb" Gaza.

You may now carry on... sorry for the interruption of Tin Foil Timothy's narrative.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Just a note - Israel did not "carpet bomb" Gaza.

You may now carry on... sorry for the interruption of Tin Foil Timothy's narrative.

We have a winner!!!

I knew someone would pick up on that one. I was being figurative and not in the literally defined sense.

There are many areas of Gaza completely wrecked and the wreckage is akin to carpet bombing. I know I pulled the lever that will start the Zionist Apologist Pedantic Derail Mechanism, but I'm not going waste time on a carpet bomb forum pedantic sparring match that implodes into pointless minutiae.

 

[balrog666]

We have a winner!!!

I knew someone would pick up on that one. I was being figurative and not in the literally defined sense.

There are many areas of Gaza completely wrecked and the wreckage is akin to carpet bombing. I know I pulled the lever that will start the Zionist Apologist Pedantic Derail Mechanism, but I'm not going waste time on a carpet bomb forum pedantic sparring match that implodes into pointless minutiae.

Oooh, somebody else doesn't have you on Ignore! Congrats, troll.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Oooh, somebody else doesn't have you on Ignore! Congrats, troll.

Oh dear. Now that was a mature post wasn't it?

 

[IDB87]

Do you honestly believe that carpet bombing vast areas of gaza and slaughtering vast numbers of innocent Palestinians and casuing a humanitarian crisis for those who manage to surive the onslaught is a smart thing to do?

The precision bombing of key Hamas instillations and strongholds by guided missles does not equate to carpet bombing. I'm quite shocked that you'd go as far as to equate what happened to Gaza to, say Dresden or London. And here is the emotive spin you put on it, 'slaughtered vast numbers of innocent Palestinians.' Spin it however you wish, but the percent of civilian to militant deaths was quite tight. I believe B'tselem stated of all those who were killed, 48% were militants. That works out to nearly 1:1 ratio. Some homework for you, TFT, if you're interested, would be to find any other modern air campaign with such tight statistics.

DO you thin kthat sort of actions both the actiosn of a country who wants peace andand action that is likely to brign forward peace?

I don't know what you're asking here, but from what I -think- I read, it is the action of a nation near the end of its limit.

Oh for god's sake. The apartheid in the west bank is common knowledge.

I'll play ball. Does this apartheid apply to the Arab Israelis? If not, why? How can a racist government discriminate against an ethnicity in one country, but not against that same ethnicitiy in its own country? Does a lack of apartheid in Israel kind of poke holes in your 'racist argument'?

Absolutely ridiculous analogy. Did you honestly expect that one to be respecte4d? America isn't building illegal settlements in Mexico and building roads only for Americans in Mexico or stealing land of the Mexicans.

Just a note: Not all settlements in the West Bank are illegal.

Anyways, I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that there is Apartheid in the West Bank? Seperation of nationals is not apartheid.

protecting borders is one thing. Ghettoising the Gazans is another

How do you feel about the Articles from the U.N. charter that I posted?

I could care less whether it's legal.

I don't care how you 'feel' abot something. We're discussing the legality, not the morality.

You are making the grave mistake of making this an Israel v. Hamas conflict.

I'm sorry, how is this not an Israel/Hamas conflict? Hamas is in control. Hamas launches rockets into Israel. Hamas does not prevent rockets from being fired into Israel. Hamas encourages rockets to be fired into Israel. How does striking back at Hamas equate to an attack on ALL Palestinians?

It's not it's an israel persecuting the Palestinians conflict. Hamas came and hamas will go.

Hamas seems to be doing their very best to make sure they go sooner rather than later. Please, explain how this last conflict was a blow to all Palestinians?

The Palestinians haev sustained a 60 year 'brawl' with Israel

So much for your 'soft' genocide that Israel is committing. The Palestinians have survived through the conflict, but their governments and militias tend to be destroyed rather efficiently or decay from within.

And when do you think Israel will reach that conclusion

Is Israel in danger of losing militarily? Hamas will continue to fight, a losing fight I may add, until it is either destroyed or it disbands. They cannot defeat Israel militarily.

I never condone attacking civilians.

But, you'd launch rockets, just as Hamas does, right? I mean, who wouldn't retaliate, right? Except Hamas launches rockets at civilians, not the IDF. So, do you think Hamas should be 'retaliating' in the manner they've chosen?

 

[IDB87]

We have a winner!!!

I knew someone would pick up on that one. I was being figurative and not in the literally defined sense.

That's also called slander.

I know I pulled the lever that will start the Zionist Apologist Pedantic Derail Mechanism, but I'm not going waste time on a carpet bomb forum pedantic sparring match that implodes into pointless minutiae.

OK, so you purposefully used carpet bombing, knowing it was a false claim, and will now refuse to debate the use of that term?