Gaza homes destruction 'wanton'

[The Fool]

Are you confined in an insane asylum somewhere that you can post from but not use Google? How very strange.

If you have no answer just say so...no need to be cheeky.

 

[geni]

How did you miss what Hamas

Can you prove that was Hamas?

did to the fully functioning greenhouses (and housing) left behind by the previous Israeli pullout?

They were built for isrealis. Accuseing isreal of being a terrorst nation is probably a bit overdone.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Perhaps a "gaza thread", a "west bank" thread, an "israel politics" thread. Throw in an "Israeli atrocities" thread and a "hamas atrocities" thread and we should obviate the need to start a new thread to rehash the same issues each day.

As long as Israel continues it's atrocities against the Palestinians then people like myself will continue to speak up about it.

Ironic that many of those who relish in complaining about the amount of Israel Criticism threads are the the ones who are attracted to them like flies around a honey pot.

The amount Israel criticism Threads simply reflects the amount of atrocities and racism committed by Israel.

 

[DC]

in ever Israel topic the same picture.

disgusting.

for some all Israelis are total evil and terrorists.
for others all Palestinians are evil and terrorists.

with every topic about isreal it seem the posters get more and more to an extreme position on both sides of the issue.

do you people realise that you are talking about the lives of Humans. Israeli Humans and Palestinian humans....

i have the impression alot forgot that already.....

 

[Beerina]

We may need to ask the moderators to create a "General anti-Israel Thread subforum".

Fixed it for you.

 

[webfusion]

WANTON?

Oh, wait ... nevermind....

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

in ever Israel topic the same picture.

disgusting.

for some all Israelis are total evil and terrorists.
for others all Palestinians are evil and terrorists.

with every topic about isreal it seem the posters get more and more to an extreme position on both sides of the issue.

can you show us where someone has said all Israelis are total evil and terrorists.

My position isn't extreme. I simply criticize Israel for the terrible atrocities it has committed over the last 60 years against the Palestinians. if it didn't commit the atrocities I wouldn't criticize it for them.

do you people realise that you are talking about the lives of Humans. Israeli Humans and Palestinian humans....

i have the impression alot forgot that already.....

Indeed. I have often tried to explain that the recent slaughter in Gaza by Israel involved real human beings. But many couldn't find the courage to face up to that and instead tried to justify the disproportionate weaponry used by dehumanized debate of 'legality'

 

[IDB87]

But many couldn't find the courage to face up to that and instead tried to justify the disproportionate weaponry used by dehumanized debate of 'legality'

One of the questions I asked you, which you never answered, was what kind of response Hamas should have receieved? You have agreed that Israel has a right to exist, and by extension, a right to protect itself. When Hamas (or whichever group) bombs their territory for however long, does Israel have a right to respond militarily? What kind of weapons should they use? What kind of tactics?

Etc, etc.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Challenge to the forum:

How can this thread be made unique (or even identifiable) from all other TFT's anti-Israel threads.

I propose all responses must be in the form of top-40 song lyrics.

Attempted derail.

Wow.

14,500 buildings.

If we take Gazan sources at their word, without verification, that means 600 civilians were killed.

So...roughly 1 civilian death for every 24 houses destroyed.

Your claim is that the Israelis don't give a flying **** about Palestinian civilians, even targeting them.

Do the Israeli soldiers just suck at their job?

Straw man, attempted derail.

How did you miss what Hamas did to the fully functioning greenhouses (and housing) left behind by the previous Israeli pullout?

Implied tu quoque argument, attempted derail.

The good thing about the local pro-Israeli posters is that if there are factual inaccuracies, suspect sources or other flaws in a posted story that shows Israel in a bad light they're certain to promptly bring them up.

The bad thing is that lacking any factual or logical reason to criticise a story, some of them will just try to derail the thread in order to avoid talking about facts that cause them cognitive dissonance.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

.. how are thos..

I don't want to know.

 

[gdnp]

As long as Israel continues it's atrocities against the Palestinians then people like myself will continue to speak up about it.

Did I tell you to stop? No.

Ironic that many of those who relish in complaining about the amount of Israel Criticism threads are the the ones who are attracted to them like flies around a honey pot.

Gee, and what lesson do you learn from that? I guess it means that people are not averse to discussing the issues, they just don't think we need to start a new thread every day. I've only been around for 10 months, and I an subscribed to almost 300 threads, even after deleting out hundreds of subscriptions.

The amount Israel criticism Threads simply reflects the amount of atrocities and racism committed by Israel.

Then what is the problem in making a more generic thread in which these issues could be discussed, rather than a new thread for each perceived atrocity? Call it the Israel atrocity and racism thread. When it gets to 10 pages, start a new one.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Implied tu quoque argument, attempted derail.

The good thing about the local pro-Israeli posters is that if there are factual inaccuracies, suspect sources or other flaws in a posted story that shows Israel in a bad light they're certain to promptly bring them up.

The bad thing is that lacking any factual or logical reason to criticise a story, some of them will just try to derail the thread in order to avoid talking about facts that cause them cognitive dissonance.

Yup, that's how it goes.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

One of the questions I asked you, which you never answered, was what kind of response Hamas should have receieved? You have agreed that Israel has a right to exist, and by extension, a right to protect itself. When Hamas (or whichever group) bombs their territory for however long, does Israel have a right to respond militarily? What kind of weapons should they use? What kind of tactics?

Etc, etc.

The bottom line is that the behavior of Israel against the innocent Gazan people was atrocious and disgusting. And then Israel made themselves even more vile by claiming that it's the fault of Hamas that Israel is slaughtering Palestinian civilians.

What kind of tactics? tactics that aren't something akin to carpet bombing the place. If Israel has all this modern technology for intelligence then it should have gone in and arrested Hamas suspects and dealt with them as you would deal with criminals.

The wrong way to do it was to bomb the crap out of Gaza, and kill hundreds of children. The wrong way to do it was to commit war crimes and generally act in the same way of terrorism that it accuses others. The wrong way to do it was to prevent journalists from doing their job and proving that there was something to hide.

But this is a whole lot more than just Hamas V. Israel. Hamas is relatively new to the table and the Israel v. Palestinian conflict cannot be confined to Hamas has been upto.

What about the Apartheid in the West Bank? What about the 700 checkpoints. What about the racist policies in Israel itself. Whjat about the continued building of settlements and the continued stealing of land belonging to Palestinians?

I'm not buying that Israel is just behaving in a manner that's proportionately in response to some primitive rockets being aimed at a patch land in southern Israel.

Israel's agenda is to drive the Palestinians out. Israel has already claimed Jerusalem is it's capitol, which it has no right to do, it's continuing it's agenda of eating into the west Bank. It won't give back the Golan Heights because of the water. It's ghettoizing the Gazans, preventing them from building an economy and standard of living where Hamas type aggression wouldn't flourish.

Israel is behaving badly, it has done for 60 years.

I would ask YOU what would you expect of a group like the Palestinians who have been persecuted for 60 years?

 

[webfusion]

The bottom line is that the behavior of Israel against the innocent Gazan people was atrocious and disgusting. And then Israel made themselves even more vile by claiming that it's the fault of Hamas that Israel is slaughtering Palestinian civilians.

It was the fault of the HAMAS -- totally, 100%.

What kind of tactics? tactics that aren't something akin to carpet bombing the place. If Israel has all this modern technology for intelligence then it should have gone in and arrested Hamas suspects and dealt with them as you would deal with criminals.

You apparently missed the part where the IAF actually targetted and succeeded in killing EXACTLY who they aimed at? And that we do indeed have quite a few HAMAS leaders in our jails?

(The HAMAS is trying to horse-trade their single IDF hostage, Cpl Gilad Shalit, for all their jailed members)

The wrong way to do it was to bomb the crap out of Gaza, and kill hundreds of children.

The women & children were placed in the line of fire by HAMAS, intentionally.

As for the directed actions of the Israeli Army, Air Force and Navy, I don't think it was the "wrong way" at all.

What about the Apartheid in the West Bank? What about the 700 checkpoints. What about the racist policies in Israel itself. What about the continued building of settlements and the continued stealing of land belonging to Palestinians?

Loaded terms:
Apartheid.
Racism.
Stealing.

The land (collectively) does not belong to the Palestinians.
It is disputed and legally occupied, and Israel has good reasons to maintain security across these lands, using whatever methods seem to work best.

I'm not buying that Israel is just behaving in a manner that's proportionately in response to some primitive rockets being aimed at a patch land in southern Israel.

We are not interested in "proportionality" --- we wanted to escalate beyond a point that the terrorists are prepared to accept as reasonable. It worked.

Israel's agenda is to drive the Palestinians out.

Liar.

Israel has already claimed Jerusalem is it's capitol, which it has no right to do.

It is the eternal capital of Jews the world over.
Under Israeli jurisdiction, Jerusalem is shared and maintained in proper order.
Under Arab jurisdiction, it wasn't.

Israel is behaving badly, as it has done for 60 years.

Israel is behaving reasonably and defensively.

I would ask YOU what would you expect of a group like the Palestinians who have been persecuted for 60 years?

Sue for peace.
Israel has expressed every intention of allowing them to have a true peace, with one simple condition:

STOP. YOUR. JIHAD. NOW.

 

[DC]

It was the fault of the HAMAS -- totally, 100%.





You apparently missed the part where the IAF actually targetted and succeeded in killing EXACTLY who they aimed at? And that we do indeed have quite a few HAMAS leaders in our jails?

(The HAMAS is trying to horse-trade their single IDF hostage, Cpl Gilad Shalit, for all their jailed members)



The women & children were placed in the line of fire by HAMAS, intentionally.

As for the directed actions of the Israeli Army, Air Force and Navy, I don't think it was the "wrong way" at all.




Loaded terms:
Apartheid.
Racism.
Stealing.

The land (collectively) does not belong to the Palestinians.
It is disputed and legally occupied, and Israel has good reasons to maintain security across these lands, using whatever methods seem to work best.




We are not interested in "proportionality" --- we wanted to escalate beyond a point that the terrorists are prepared to accept as reasonable. It worked.




Liar.




It is the eternal capital of Jews the world over.
Under Israeli jurisdiction, Jerusalem is shared and maintained in proper order.
Under Arab jurisdiction, it wasn't.



Israel is behaving reasonably and defensively.




Sue for peace.
Israel has expressed every intention of allowing them to have a true peace, with one simple condition:

STOP. YOUR. JIHAD. NOW.

and when will Israel stop its illegal sttlements?

you cannot just always blame others. Istrael has to remove the Israeli settlers outside Israel.

maybe then Israel is in a position to demand a stop of the hamas rockets.

 

[IDB87]

and when will Israel stop its illegal sttlements?

Care to determine which settlements are legal, and which are illegal? It's quite a convoluted task, but don't let that stop you.

maybe then Israel is in a position to demand a stop of the hamas rockets.

Those rockets are coming out of Gaza. Does Israel have any settlements in Gaza?

If Fatah continuously launched rockets out of the West Bank, you may have an argument.

 

[DC]

Care to determine which settlements are legal, and which are illegal? It's quite a convoluted task, but don't let that stop you.





Those rockets are coming out of Gaza. Does Israel have any settlements in Gaza?

If Fatah continuously launched rockets out of the West Bank, you may have an argument.

its simple, the Settlements outside Israels borders.

gaza or westbank, both are Palestina.

why did Texan boys and girls go to war in afghanistan when UBL atacked New York????

 

[IDB87]

The bottom line is that the behavior of Israel against the innocent Gazan people was atrocious and disgusting.

Bolding mine. Can you stop saying everyone that died was 'innocent'? You are in no position to deterimine their innocence. It's like someone saying 'Everyone who died was guilty.' It's an emotive stawman and really does not add anything. (Children are exempt from this, as I feel they are the
closest thing to actual innocence.)

/peeve

Any armed conflict will be atrocious and disgusting. What you saw in Gaza was not unique to the conflict.

And then Israel made themselves even more vile by claiming that it's the fault of Hamas that Israel is slaughtering Palestinian civilians.

It is Hamas' fault for provoking Israel to launch its' offensive. Cast Lead had been planned several months out, but how long have the rockets been flying into Israel? If Cast Lead had been planned to go into effect as soon as Hamas had taken power, you may have an argument here. Sort of like how it's Israel's fault when they provoke Hamas to launch rockets into its' territory, it is also Hamas' fault when they provoke Israel to respond in the manner we saw.

What kind of tactics? tactics that aren't something akin to carpet bombing the place. If Israel has all this modern technology for intelligence then it should have gone in and arrested Hamas suspects and dealt with them as you would deal with criminals.

But these aren't criminals, in any sense you or I are familiar with. These are paramilitary bands who would love nothing more than to draw Israel into Gaza to bleed their military with urban combat. You want them to go into Gaza to arrest these fighters? Expect an occupation as an end result.

The wrong way to do it was to bomb the crap out of Gaza, and inadvertently kill hundreds of children.

Fixed.

The wrong way to do it was to commit war crimes and generally act in the same way of terrorism that it accuses others.

But, these 'war crimes' aren't defined in any absolute terms. Any thread started on the use of WP, or of DIME weapons, or of targetting schools always devolves into the morality of using such weapons/tactics, not about the legality.

The wrong way to do it was to prevent journalists from doing their job and proving that there was something to hide.

Is there any law on the books that journalists -must- be embedded in military units/allowed into a warzone?

What about the Apartheid in the West Bank?

Was it determined that a state could inflict Apartheid on non-citizens? If there was apartheid in Israel, you may have an argument here.

What about the 700 checkpoints.

700 checkpoints? You may be thinking of 'obstructions' which include walls, barriers, fences, etc. I don't think there are 700 checkpoints.

What about the racist policies in Israel itself.

Which policies are these? I know some of them have been contested by several Israeli posters.

Whjat about the continued building of settlements and the continued stealing of land belonging to Palestinians?

Detrimental to the peace. I agree the settlements constructed on Palestinian owned land should be removed, or the owners of that land compensated, or both. However, not all of the settlements are built on illegal land, and are, infact, legit.

Israel's agenda is to drive the Palestinians out.

What about the offer made by Prime Minster Barak in 2000/2001? Arafat walked out on the best offer he would've receieved (after negotiating to terms he accepted). How does this offer, and the demolishing of settlements, tie into the Zionist plan?

I would ask YOU what would you expect of a group like the Palestinians who have been persecuted for 60 years?

I would target the military of the occupying power. I would not blow up a bus, or a pizza shop, or smash in a little girl's head with my rifle, or any other atrocities the Palestinians have committed in the name of 'freedom'.

 

[IDB87]

its simple, the Settlements outside Israels borders.

gaza or westbank, both are Palestina.

why did Texan boys and girls go to war in afghanistan when UBL atacked New York????

But Hamas has said the rocket attacks were because of the blockade, not the settlements. I may be mistaken, so feel free to post an article or two where Hamas says the (recent) rocket attacks were because of the settlements.

 

[webfusion]

and when will Israel stop its illegal settlements?

Here, DC, this is an Israeli housing development in the West Bank -- do you think the Jews living here need to vacate?

Old City of Jerusalem, Jewish Quarter (unified by Israel in 1967 six-day war)

you cannot just always blame others. Israel has to remove the Israeli settlers outside Israel.

What makes you think they are "outside" Israel? Just because they are living on lands that happen to be across the 1949 Cease-Fire Lines? When did those Armistice lines become sacrosanct "borders" in your book?

...maybe then Israel is in a position to demand a stop of the hamas rockets.

Israel is in a position to demand they stop -- right now.