I own a gun!

I've shot the FN 5.7, the trigger pull was way too heavy to be called sweet. But otherwise it was ok.

Ranb
 
RoboTimbo said:
I think a lot of the Euro perspective of America is because they're watching the wrong American TV shows.
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Well, actually to me it's the discussions in American Fora and the US news that makes me wonder about the pro-gun mindset. After the recent school shooting, the politicians over here are going ape for more restrictions, there is not a single argument from the political side for less restrictive gun-laws, as it would be the case in the US just like after VT and Columbine, where dozens of pundits defended the second amendment.

In other words: Being for private Gun rights is broadly seen as a bad thing throughout Europe.
 
BPSCG said:
Exactly.

But how about turning the argument around? It's always, "What's wrong with you Americans that you want to have guns? Don't you know how dangerous they are?"

I submit that it's people that are dangerous, not guns. Or more accurately, certain people with guns.

Do you - Europeans, that is, with very strict gun laws - believe that your countries would turn into free-fire ranges if it were easy to own a gun? Do you think you are that violent? Does the example of the Swiss make you think that maybe it is possible for a society to be well-armed and peaceable?
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Well, see it this way: If private ownership of grenades would be allowed, at some point in time someone going crazy would do some nasty things with it. So preventing people from owning grenades in the first place prevents 99% of trouble with "public grenade ownership".

And yes, you could make the same argument about cars, but cars in general aren't meant to defend yourself or to target another person.

For example: I remember a story where parents shot their kid because they thougt there's a burglar in the house. Never heard of a similar story about a car being accidentally misused to attack another person. Or for that matter, a kid stealing his/her parents keys to run amok with their car.
 
RoboTimbo said:
No, you are incorrect again.

The problem was that people wanted to steal money. When I lived in Arizona, I always wore my gun into my bank. Nobody robbed it while I was present.
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Then I hope you don't think that you actually prevented a bank robbery - or that a bank robbery actually happened while you didn't wear a gun in a bank. ;)

I could make the same unrelated and rather ridiculous argument: "Today I had a knife in my hand while I was cutting onions - and during that time, no burglar showed up. Imagine what could've happened if I hadn't the knife protecting me." :D
 
Oliver said:
Then I hope you don't think that you actually prevented a bank robbery - or that a bank robbery actually happened while you didn't wear a gun in a bank. ;)

I could make the same unrelated and rather ridiculous argument: "Today I had a knife in my hand while I was cutting onions - and during that time, no burglar showed up. Imagine what could've happened if I hadn't the knife protecting me." :D
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You could have stopped the burglar with the knife if one happened to show up. It isn't necessarily ridiculous.
 
parky76 said:
Guns are fun for shooting targets, cans, and other inanimate objects.

Plus they scare away burglars and Santa. And they can be used if the USA is taken over by a fascist Republican regime.....again.
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While I guess that facist republicans are a matter of puplic support rather than gun-rights, you could have the same amount of fun using rather harmless paintballs for those purposes, couldn't you?

fullflavormenthol said:
You could have stopped the burglar with the knife if one happened to show up. It isn't necessarily ridiculous.
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That's true. But it is ridiculous to assume that the burglar is around the corner all the time. Not to mention that insurace companies pay for your losses anyway if you decide to say: "Okay, take all you want and leave".
 
Oliver said:
So, how are these incidents examples of "accidental misuse" of cars in contrast to my "Shot child accidentally" example?
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Oh, sorry, one was an example of "Or for that matter, a kid stealing his/her parents keys to run amok with their car." You want examples of people using an automobile in what they believed to be a safe and responsible manner and accidentally killing someone? Go Google "fatal car accident". Happens every day all over the world, your willful ignorance notwithstanding.
 
Oliver said:
Then I hope you don't think that you actually prevented a bank robbery - or that a bank robbery actually happened while you didn't wear a gun in a bank. ;)
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Yes, two bank robberies occurred while I wasn't there, none while I was.

I could make the same unrelated and rather ridiculous argument: "Today I had a knife in my hand while I was cutting onions - and during that time, no burglar showed up. Imagine what could've happened if I hadn't the knife protecting me." :D
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I'll let you judge how ridiculous your statement is but you may recall that that was in response to your statement:
Oliver said:
...because "wearing guns in a bank" obviously was the problem in the first place, not the solution.
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I was demonstrating for you how you were incorrect. Wearing guns into a bank is NOT the problem, QED.
 
GeeMack said:
No, you're still wrong... again. Seems you have some problem being consistent. You are wrong about a particular thing, twice. You are shown to be wrong. You admit to being wrong. Then you go say the same stupid wrong thing again. :rolleyes:
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It's a semantic game he plays, apparently. :rolleyes:
 
Rolfe said:
Wow! A gun proponent has just come up with a reason for carrying a gun that I agree with!

I don't think it's enough of a reason to be arming the entire population, especially in cities, but it's one hell of a compelling argument for a very very rural area.

Rolfe.
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Okay, great! Here's some more data for you. I live in a rural area with deer, elk, bear, and, wait for it, mountain lions capable of taking large dogs (everyone I met has a story of losing one to a lion), small children, and very occasionally, an adult (usually an adult doing trail running, a popular activity).

So, for instance, can you imagine trying to ax an elk to death? They run up to 1000 lbs. Or how about an injured bear? "Hold still, bear-y, just 3 or so more swings, it won't be that excruiating". Or imagine standing on your deck watching a mountain lion readying its spring towards your child, with nothing to stop it (they just sneer if you scream at them). Or walking out to your pasture and finding your beloved horse with it's intestines ripped out from coyotes. Or being so far from civilization for all intents and purposes you have no police force or animal control. Or being entirely capable of killing and slaughtering your own pigs. etc.

My front 'lawn' (native grass) is being torn apart by ground squirrels and the like. People with horse pastures have bigger problems - prairie dog holes, which can break a horse's leg. You are the vet, and this is a serious question: which is more humane, a .22LR to the head, or death by poison?

Now let's talk about our booming deer and elk population. We are starting to be overrun, to the point that even the Rocky Mountain National Park, one of the exemplars of wildlife protection (you have to keep your dog in the car there to avoid scaring wildlife) is talking about culling them. Despite my mention of the mountain lions above, we have largely wiped out the natural predators of these large animals. The result, I'm sure you know better than I do. Mass starvations, disease sweeping through entire herds, wildlife straying onto the road, not only getting horrifically killed, but injuring or killing the car occupants. (Elk and moose are tall enough that you hit their legs. Their body flips up over the hood and slams through the windshield and into the front seat passengers. My father was a fire chief for a few decades, and had a lot of responses to accidents like this). Sure, we could have a government system of culling, or, we could have hunting. Even with hunting, though, culling is a real possibility around here.

I assume you've traveled here. It's not England, settled since the Anglo-Saxons. Yes, the large majority of our population is in high density settled areas, but some of us are still literally battling carnivores, being overrun by wildlife. Out here, in the west, and up in rural New England, where I grew up, guns are primarily tools, and fun a distant second (you might go out once a year and plink some cans to make sure your sights are aligned - who has money for ammunition when you are dirt poor rural folk?)

I grew up in NH. I don't remember a shooting when I grew up (there may have been). I do remember a few stabbings, I remember a daughter setting her family's house on fire with her parents inside. Most people had guns. (edit: to be fair, now I think about it, I do remember a few hunting accidents - 2 or 3 during my 20 years there).

I fully understand another person could write a 'rebuttal', telling about growing up in the inner city, being afraid to walk near a window for fear of being hit by a stray bullet, etc. That testimony would be as entirely true as mine, and just as worthy of being taken into consideration.

My statement is not 'X, therefore guns'. It's more along the lines of "the heart of the NRA comes from areas like I described." Bird hunters. Farmers. People who want protection against large carnivores. Hunters. Weekend target shooters. People who have had a positive relationship with guns their entire lives. People who have passed down rifles from father, to son, to son. Father's who dream of the first day they bring their child to the blind with them. People who have humanely dispatched livestock, dogs stroking out. People who have scared coyotes away from their sheep with a shot fired into the ground. People who have never had a shooting in their neck of the woods for as long as they remember, but everyone has a story of arms being ripped off in farm equipment, broken necks due to being thrown from a horse, domestic violence turned bad, bar fights, etc. People who are at best perplexed, at worst openly scornful at attempts to control firearms, the least dangerous, and by some measures the most useful (when you need one, you really need one) tool they could own.

For guns to go away in the US, you are going to have to give those people a different way of life, a different way of thinking about guns. I'm not convinced it's a desirable goal, but if it is, that's the demographic that is going to fight it to their last breath.
 
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I don't like the term "own a gun". I prefer to say that I "have a companion firearm".
 
Oliver said:
Well, actually to me it's the discussions in American Fora and the US news that makes me wonder about the pro-gun mindset. After the recent school shooting, the politicians over here are going ape for more restrictions, there is not a single argument from the political side for less restrictive gun-laws, as it would be the case in the US just like after VT and Columbine, where dozens of pundits defended the second amendment.

In other words: Being for private Gun rights is broadly seen as a bad thing throughout Europe.
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I dont know about where you are, but in the US its already illegal to shoot at people for no reason. The laws are already on the books
 
Dictator Cheney said:
when i get in that situation, i give all my money .

mostly they dont want to kill you, they just want the money.
Material things and money can be replaced, live cannot.
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I love the part about "mostly." The other non-mostly times when they DO want to kill you... you're dead. And those times, the part about "material things and money can be replaced while lives cannot" doesn't apply because the criminal is okay.

And that's the really, really, really important thing. That, thankfully, the criminal is safe and unharmed by gun violence. What a relief.

All together now, children of the world: "NO GUNS. GUNS BAD. GUNS KILL. GUNS KILL PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL! Oops, pardon my little non-PC slip there.
 
Oliver said:
So, how are these incidents examples of "accidental misuse" of cars in contrast to my "Shot child accidentally" example?
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Jaded Blue (found through Jab) Knew I could locate without just asking. Weirdly, Google doesn't recognize it.
:D
 
roger said:
Okay, great! Here's some more data for you. I live in a rural area with deer, elk, bear, and, wait for it, mountain lions capable of taking large dogs (everyone I met has a story of losing one to a lion), small children, and very occasionally, an adult (usually an adult doing trail running, a popular activity).

...

For guns to go away in the US, you are going to have to give those people a different way of life, a different way of thinking about guns. I'm not convinced it's a desirable goal, but if it is, that's the demographic that is going to fight it to their last breath.
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Nominated.
 
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