Molten Steel

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Christopher7 said:
The point is:

The NIST collapse theory is not supported by the evidence.

It is based on an assumption that the core columns were heated to the point of failure.
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So we are not discussing the nature of the molten metal anymore?

This looks like a k00k topic change to me.
 
Christopher7 said:
I admit when I am wrong and change my position accordingly. You refuse to even acknowledge that you LIED about the samples in the FEMA report being tested, much less admit you were wrong.
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Mark

You have not responded to this.

You lied!

You cannot deny it so you just try to ignore it.
 
BigAl said:
So we are not discussing the nature of the molten metal anymore?
This looks like a k00k topic change to me.
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Correct.

Just to recap before getting back to the molten metal:

NIST cannot verify temperatures above 250[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]C for any of the core columns.
 
C7 said:
Aluminum oxide is not molten aluminum.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aluminum Oxide, Al2O3[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Alumina is the most cost effective and widely used material in the family of engineering ceramics.
http://www.accuratus.com/alumox.html

[/FONT]Its most significant use is in the production of aluminium metal,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide

Has Mr. Chastain performed experiments and documented the mixing of glass and molten aluminum or glass becoming entrained in molten aluminum?

If not, then it's just more double talk.

Furthermore, once the windows busted out, there was no more glass to be entrained so the whole idea if glass entrained in the molten metal causing it to glow orange yellow is absurd.
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BigAl said:
Aluminum oxidizes at the drop of a hat.
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Apparently you don't know the difference between "oxidizes" and "oxide".

Try Google University for the definitions, or even your Windows dictionary.

oxidize: to form an oxide coating

oxide: a compound containing oxygen

aluminum oxide is a compound that aluminum is made from.
 
Christopher7 said:
Apparently you don't know the difference between "oxidizes" and "oxide".

Try Google University for the definitions, or even your Windows dictionary.

oxidize: to form an oxide coating

oxide: a compound containing oxygen

aluminum oxide is a compound that aluminum is made from.
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Yes and in the english language their are also adjectives (modifying a noun or a pronoun) and verbs (denoting action), paste tense, future tense, and plenty more which modify words in context. Good god if you're going to nit pick at least do eet right D:<
 
No one has presented any evidence that organic material can mix with molten aluminum.

That's because it can't, as has been shown.

You may not accept those results but until you can produce evidence to support the hypothesis [assumption], it's just a half baked, unsubstantiated explanation for the molten metal being aluminum.
 
Sunstealer said:
I am telling you now as I have told you before.

Corrosion cannot act that fast in order to weaken the steel structure. There is no "Alien super-doopa stength blood" that can corrode through tens of floors.

Corrosion could have started before the collapse and I bet it did, however, there is absolutely no way that it could be so severe as to weaken the structure of the building in 50 minutes or 1 hour 40. If that were the case there would be huge rumbles in the corrosion industry, we would have to re-evaluate our corrosion mechanisms and rates.

Please learn about diffusion and f-i-c-k-s law before you spout this nonsense. The physics just will not allow it under the conditions of a building fire.

If you claim otherwise then it is upto you to show us. Warning: That will require mathematics and an understanding of chemistry and metallurgy.

Heat is the overriding factor with regard to the failure of steel in fires. At 600°C steel loses between 1/2 and 2/3rds of it's strength. I've shown you this aswell - why do you not click on and read the links provided? It would stop you repeating the drivel and you might learn something.

Lastly you are wrong to say either or, that's a false dichotomy. The corrosion most likely initiated during the building fire and continued post collapse. Why do you insist on a before or after conclusion when both are possible. Learn about corrosion rates f-i-c-k's first and second laws. http://people.virginia.edu/~lz2n/mse209/Chapter5.pdf
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you are exactly right to state "Corrosion cannot act that fast in order to weaken the steel structure. "

we need to pinpoint what happened above before the collapse and what happened below in the pile. when dr Astaneh describes steel 8 days after the attack that was once 5/8 thick had "vaporized", then we need to find out how much occured before it collapsed. from the article, dr Astaneh thinks it happeded before it fell. has sisson showed us how the slag can attack 5/8 of an inch of steel in 8 days?? not from any article you guys have linked.

from what u state "The physics just will not allow it under the conditions of a building fire."
thats why some think accelerants were used to help facilitate the collapse.
 
Gravy said:
Wrong. You said,
First, the infrared image you posted clearly shows a huge area of heat on the east face. Second, what part of this don't you understand?

"Recall from the discussion in Section 8.1 that the temperature scales for the infrared images are not quantitative and that they provide only a relative indication of the amount of heating at a given location. Much of the heated area is saturated in the infrared images."

Third, three of the photos I posted show flames coming from the east face within a few minutes of the FLIR photo. You're not even trying.
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the huge area of heat was relatively 220F, sound good to ya. avaris was saturated too if u look at the pdf file mackey posted but they came up with a temp too.....

and i admit, i was watching it on video and the pics you provided were more clear.
 
Sunstealer said:
I am telling you now as I have told you before.

Corrosion cannot act that fast in order to weaken the steel structure.
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You are confusing normal corrosion that takes place over a long time with the
"high-temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation." that corroded the beams noted in FEMA C.


There is no "Alien super-doopa stength blood" that can corrode through tens of floors.
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Strawman.

NIST says the beam from the tower was laying horizontal. They knew this because it was apparent that the liquid euectic had flowed onto the beam from above.
 
Gravy said:
I know that my ability to make meaningful judgments about out-of-context photos is extremely limited. For instance, if someone says, "Look at the end of this column: it's obviously been cut by thermite," I can point to photos that show the characteristics of thermite attack versus normal torch cuts. But without more information I can't tell where the column was located, when it was cut, or what conditions it was subjected to before and after collapse.

I'm asking why you want to see the photos. Astaneh has already published photos that he found interesting (and he made some incorrect judgments in his early assessments), and you have demonstrated your inability to say anything meaningful about them, or about any other photos.

Do you expect, on seeing more photos, to be suddenly blessed with the gift of remote structural and metallurgical clairvoyance?
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id like to see and try to determine a date on each photo (that showed signs of an attack) to get a better understanding of the time frame sisson is dealing with when it comes to the slag attack on the steel. here is a pic he took of some wtc 7 steel (he thinks). it would be nice if he got a close up of the burned parts. it looks as though it has thined from the pic from an "attack" but it would be nice to get a close up if he had one. i also wonder if the burned middle part of the steel was a connection point?? the photo looks like its on the bed of a truck. this probably was outside his hotel room before they changed routes. so its probably pretty close to 8 days after the attack.

well the image is too big to upload: its figure 10 on page 11.
http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf
 
Christopher7 said:
Apparently you don't know the difference between "oxidizes" and "oxide".

Try Google University for the definitions, or even your Windows dictionary.

oxidize: to form an oxide coating

oxide: a compound containing oxygen

aluminum oxide is a compound that aluminum is made from.
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You do realise that when a metal oxidises it forms an oxide (layer) on it's surface, which is, as you say, a compound containing oxygen? So why does solid aluminium form Al2O3 on it's surface at room temperature? This is aluminium oxide is it not? And therefore a compound containing oxygen?

I will acknowledge that C7 is indeed correct when he says aluminium oxide is a compound that aluminium is made from using the Hall-Héroult process, however, in order to get to that stage you do need to refine Bauxite using the Bayer process.

What would happen if aluminium did not form this oxide layer?
 
Christopher7 said:
No one has presented any evidence that organic material can mix with molten aluminum.

That's because it can't, as has been shown.
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You have been shown time and time again that this is NOT true. WhiteLion has done this better than anyone else. Why do you refuse to read the links that have the evidence? The video you link to does not do any science, there is no data that anyone can get from that video - it's worthless.

Any environment that is hot enough to produce fully liquid aluminium (alloy) at 510°C (950°F) for 2014 is going to burn office materials. The liquid aluminium is going to oxidise it's surface, but also have environmental species diffusing into it's surface as well as pick up particulates of material from anything it touches, the ashes generated from the fire and god knows what else.

As for the mixing - imagine baking a cake - you mix all the ingredients together, it's nice and smooth. Now stir some currants in. Bake the cake. Where are the currants? Did they dissolve into the mix? Did they disappear? What would happen if you used very, very small currants that couldn't be seen? Would you still taste currants?
 
Sunstealer said:
You do realise that when a metal oxidises it forms an oxide (layer) on it's surface, which is, as you say, a compound containing oxygen? So why does solid aluminium form Al2O3 on it's surface at room temperature? This is aluminium oxide is it not? And therefore a compound containing oxygen?
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Correct, but this is a very thin layer.

The small amount of aluminum oxide on the surface of the aluminum is not enough to entrain glass as Mr. Chastain has suggested:

"The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similay and likely to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tension is so high is is almost impossible to separate them."

I will acknowledge that C7 is indeed correct when he says aluminium oxide is a compound that aluminium is made from using the Hall-Héroult process, however, in order to get to that stage you do need to refine Bauxite using the Bayer process.
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Correct

What would happen if aluminium did not form this oxide layer?
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Relivance?
 
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