Steel failing in hydrocarbon fires.

[Baylor]

Progressive in it's isolated area. It did not trigger global collapse.

This does not happen.

So you're claiming that only explosives can cause a global collapse of high rise structures?

 

[Gravy]

So you just admitted both the video gravy cited and the Ronan Point were a progressive collapses.

I think he left out the part that said the collapse started on the 18th floor by a relatively minor gas explosion (the woman who struck the match wasn't badly hurt).

 

[funk de fino]

I am being honest. What maneuver?

You're certainly honest in showing us you did not know what a progressive collapse was. Well done.

 

[Minadin]

One of the first notions you are disabused of in your structural courses in architecture or engineering school is that steel structure is inherently fireproof because it's not combustible. It does not take long. Once you look at the science you feel fairly dumb for ever considering the idea.

 

[Architect]

Homeland Insurgency

Let's break this down. The first issue is whether you accept that structural steelwork is, in general, susceptible to fire induced failure. Set to one side the "complete structural failure" issue.

If you don't accept this, then can you please explain in some detail why this might be, including reference to the very specific points identified in the OP and my own subsequent post.

 

[chillzero]

Keep it civil and on topic, or the thread will be closed.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[BenBurch]

... Let's break this down. ...

It is clear he has conceded this argument.

 

[Sunstealer]

So we can rule out engineering as your degree.

We can rule out any pass in any Maths or science exam. I have yet to see a truther do anything, but the most rudimentary calculation and they often get that wrong too.

Why don't they enrol at the Open University or take night classes. Hell even a trip to a metallurgical lab at a university and witness tensile tests on steel samples at 20, 200, 400, 600°C to actually witness the results with the first year undergraduates in their first month.

Hell it would only cost about £10, 000 for 6 samples to be machined and then tested at whatever temps they liked to prove it themselves. Why do they refuse to donate monies for this sort of research if it's so important.

I'd rather see truther posts that do not answer the questions removed rather than binning the whole thread.

 

[jaydeehess]

My thoughts are that steel structure high-rise buildings are usually large buildings. Fires are usually isolated. So collapsing the entire building because of isolated damage and fire is unlikely if not impossible. Just like the video Gravy displayed.

In the case of 3 buildings on 9/11 the fires were NOT isolated. They were widespread, over several floors. That takes care of one point.

Three times in one day for two different given reasons is impossible.

Care to back that up with some sort of bassis for stating that it is "impossible?
Care to explain why a collapse that essentially saw a ten storey building collapse onto a 90 storey building COULD not , SHOULD not, WOULD not cause the complete destruction of the 90 storey building?
Care to tell us where the NIST eport on WTC 7 indicating that thermal expansion coupled with assymettric beam/girder placement COULD not , SHOULD not, WOULD not account for the complete destruction of that building?
Please include in your explanation detail that relates to the specific construction techniques in the structures.

You're all supposed to be the critical thinkers around here aren't you? Why does a crazy twoofer like me need to rub your nose in this very smelly fact?

How does it smell debunker?

It smells like you soiled yourself CT. You utterly refuse to take the sum total of the evidence available and chose instead to nit pick at details which you dismiss on either a confirmation bias or personal incedulity.

It depends. Is it a steel structured dog house or a high-rise?

Why is it you can't come up with a valid comparison in over a one hundred year history of steel structured high-rise fires?

Why is it that there has never been a case of
1) a large modern jetliner deliberatly flown into a very tall structure at high speed
2) a huge office fire in a structure that was built with an assymettric column/beam system


What we can, and have come up with are many examples of steel failing due to heat weakening and/or thermal expansion.

Nope. The building was still there.

It's not a comparison to what is claimed to have happened on 9/11 three times for two different reasons.

Just can't get around it can you or anyone else for that matter?

I mean really who is trying to move the goal posts?

It ain't me.

It has been pointed out before that he 'first time' arguement is a fallacy.
Will you get around to explaining why the shuttle Columbia suffered a complete loss when hit by foam/ice on lift off when there were many instances of such impacts on previous missions that came through OK?

Homeland Insurgency

Let's break this down. The first issue is whether you accept that structural steelwork is, in general, susceptible to fire induced failure. Set to one side the "complete structural failure" issue.

If you don't accept this, then can you please explain in some detail why this might be, including reference to the very specific points identified in the OP and my own subsequent post.

That IS the topic of the OP. Perhaps HI will address it by either confirming or denying that steel can and has failed due to hydrocarbon fires.

 

[jaydeehess]

Progressive in it's isolated area. It did not trigger global collapse.

This does not happen.

It therefore is a progressive collapse. It began as a local collapse and that triggered the failure of other portions of the structure. That is the definition of progression!

You are correct in that it was not a progression to global collapse.
However the structure did not concentrate all of its columns in a small central core area. Evenly spacing columns greatly affects the ability to halt a progressive collapse because smaller sections of flooring fall at any one moment. In the case of a long span floor a very large amount of mass falls at the same time creating a much larger impulse that is to be absorbed by the lower structure and at the same time the lower structure, if also long span in nature, has less ability to absorb such an impulse.
Use of concrete columns also aids in reducing the damage as they are not as affected by heat damage as steel columns.

So, once again, do you know of a tall, long span structure that had a large fire that did not suffer at least a partial failure?

 

[Architect]

Homeland Insurgency

Let's break this down. The first issue is whether you accept that structural steelwork is, in general, susceptible to fire induced failure. Set to one side the "complete structural failure" issue.

If you don't accept this, then can you please explain in some detail why this might be, including reference to the very specific points identified in the OP and my own subsequent post.

Homeland Insurgency

Can I press you for a response to this, please?

 

[Architect]

Can I also just flag up to one and all (again) Gravy's rather extensive page of links to papers (and the like) on the fire performance of steel:

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/firesafetyengineering&theperformanceofst

 

[BenBurch]

Homeland Insurgency

Can I press you for a response to this, please?

*> pin dropping <*

 

[jaydeehess]

*> pin dropping <*

It certainly did get quiet here .

 

[Architect]

Indeed.

 

[Klimax]

It certainly did get quiet here .

Indeed.

Do you need some loud sounds?

 

[Tandem Thinking]

Apparently, the conspiracy that fire weakens steel has been going on since 1910:

Fire Weakens New Manhattan Bridge

Not only that, but the flames were giving off thick clouds of black smoke, clearly, the fire was oxygen starved.

 

[Gravy]

Funny, I was just reading that article last week, TT. There's a similar one about the Williamsburg Bridge from a few years earlier. Less damage to that one though.

 

[Architect]

And still no sign of any Truthers here. How very peculiar.

 

[BenBurch]

Some gratuitous steam engine photos I tool last summer;

http://www.whiterosesociety.org/RGNalbum/

More coming as soon as I make an album of the steam thresher show...