Where can I 'own' land?

[GlennB]

We pay no yearly property tax here in Greece. There is a council tax which is a very small %age of your electricity bill, so theoretically if you used no electricity you could own a house and pay no regular tax on it whatsoever.

A one-off tax is paid by the vendor of a house at the time of sale, however.

 

[Rolfe]

We do have a property tax in Scotland, based on a crude banding system. Mine seems to be about 0.5% of the value of the property.

People have refused to pay this tax (or rather its predecessor) in the past, on the grounds of principle. They were pursued vigorously and some of them ended up in jail. However, taking away the property wasn't possible.

Actually, it's not really a property tax as such, because the person liable to pay is the occupier, not the owner. It's to pay for services, therefore the person receiving the service is liable to pay.

There is currently a furious debate raging about abolishing the tax entirely, and replacing it with a graduated income tax. The government wants to do that, but as they are a minority administration the opposition can block them and they are doing that. Just this morning, as I was putting my socks on, I heard the leader of the opposition explaining how at the moment no, he didn't have an alternative replacement for the council tax, but trust him, once they finally figure something out, it will definitely be better than the government's proposal which they are voting down.

Rolfe.

 

[Francesca R]

A one-off tax is paid by the vendor of a house at the time of sale, however.

Technically, as I mentioned, stamp tax is paid by the seller here. But in reality it makes no difference--if the buyer pays then transaction prices are lower than they would be without a tax, and if the seller pays then they are higher.

 

[politas]

ETA: I'm ignorant on this, but if you don't pay your property taxes, aren't there other remedies beside you losing ownership that the government might pursue--like garnishing wages? Or is that only allowed for unpaid income taxes?

Last year, the local council started getting my tenants to pay the rent to them instead of me in order to recover rates after they failed to get a change of address notification and lost touch with me. Took me a while to realise what was happening, and that made catching up with the rates payments very easy.

Rates is the Australian equivalent of property tax. In Australia, rates are levied on the unimproved value of the land, so you pay according to the neighbourhood, rather than how nice a house you have built. My rates are a fraction of what I am charging my tenants in rent.

If I were to win one of those wildly expensive houses, I'd be seeing if I could rent it out at a level sufficient to cover the rates and upkeep costs. Turn the house into an ongoing source of income and a steadily growing asset.

Only trouble would be that "tax on the winnings" problem.

And the fact that I never buy any lottery tickets, of course.

 

[Soapy Sam]

We do have a property tax in Scotland, based on a crude banding system. Mine seems to be about 0.5% of the value of the property.

People have refused to pay this tax (or rather its predecessor) in the past, on the grounds of principle. They were pursued vigorously and some of them ended up in jail. However, taking away the property wasn't possible.

Actually, it's not really a property tax as such, because the person liable to pay is the occupier, not the owner. It's to pay for services, therefore the person receiving the service is liable to pay.

There is currently a furious debate raging about abolishing the tax entirely, and replacing it with a graduated income tax. The government wants to do that, but as they are a minority administration the opposition can block them and they are doing that. Just this morning, as I was putting my socks on, I heard the leader of the opposition explaining how at the moment no, he didn't have an alternative replacement for the council tax, but trust him, once they finally figure something out, it will definitely be better than the government's proposal which they are voting down.

Rolfe.

I'm paid in US Dollars, on a January-December pay cycle, by a US employer based in Dubai. I pay UK income tax (yes, really!) in Sterling, on a tax year that runs from April to March.
Typically I'm 18 months in arrears because that's how long it takes the UK Inland Revenue to figure out what I owe them. There is invariably debate over exchange rates, for instance. (2008-09 will be a nightmare). I get no help in sorting my taxes from my employer. I don't even get pay slips these days.
I have always paid my taxes and I have always lived in Scotland. I can think of very few things that would make me leave.
A second level of government income tax is one of them.

Given the contribution of expat workers to Scotland's economy, I think Salmond is playing with fire on this issue and he has to know it. I don't believe he has ever been serious about this, he truly cannot be that stupid.

Incidentally, would you give us a short precis of the current state of "Feu superior"? I thought one of Holyrood's earliest efforts was to rescind most feudal rights. Don't tell me you have to swear fealty to somebody and send him three dozen quail eggs and a pint of mead every Christmas?

I have occasionally wondered if, when a feudal lord demands his dues, the tenant has the right to challenge him to prove his claim in the lists? I suspect the chance of being challenged to duel to the death might lessen the attractions of the system?

ETA-ps- if you decide to go this route, we can start a thread to establish a fighting fund. I'll bung £100 towards your armour.
(You can have it in (Jersey) Henry VIII £5 coins. Bucket of cultural sensitivity there, eh?)

 

[Meadmaker]

I'd take RoboTimbo's comments with a grain of salt.

No state in the USA charges more than about 2% annually in property taxes. On a $100,000 house, you can expect to pay maybe $100 a month in taxes. On that same $100,000 house, you would expect to pay $1000 a month in rent.

Last year, on my $250,000 (and dropping) house, I payed slightly under $6,000 in property tax.

 

[madurobob]

It seems to me that part of truly owning anything is the ability to keep it and use it and not be forced legally to give it up. A person who had completely-paid-for home, and enough resources stored therein to survive without needing any outside resources, but who had no income, would be forced to give it all up if he was unable to pay the taxes on it.

It might be helpful to consider land ownership, or ownership of anything for that matter, as nothing more than a bundle of rights - something somewhat intangible. The rights are guaranteed and enforced by the government. When you acquire land, you acquire a bundle of rights with regard to that land. You can develop it, farm it, live on it, run a business on it, etc... But, any of those rights can be controlled, monitored, or even negated by another entity's higher claim of rights to the land. The government, for one. You can also peel off some of the rights and transfer them.

I own the mineral rights to the old family ranch in Utah, but I don't own the land. Still, I can lease my mineral rights to a mining company who can then go and strip mine the ranch for the oil shale underneath. The land "owners" can do nothing to stop them. So, I can strip mine the entire ranch, for as long as it takes, depriving the "owner" of his use of the land for decades. But, I can't legally set foot on the land to go hunting, camping, etc... I certainly can't build a house there.

Like many rights, you can lose them if you abuse them. A forced sale of your bundle of rights because you failed to pay the tax that covers the government's costs in maintaining the system is one of the prices we pay to avoid anarchy.

 

[D'rok]

The bundle of rights conception of property seems to have the upper hand these days. But don't count out the good old "right to exclude" just yet. Summed up nicely by Felix Cohen:

"That is property to which the following label can be attached:
To the world: Keep of X unless you have my permission, which I may grant or withhold.
Signed: Private citizen
Endorsed: The state"

 

[Rolfe]

I'm paid in US Dollars, on a January-December pay cycle, by a US employer based in Dubai. I pay UK income tax (yes, really!) in Sterling, on a tax year that runs from April to March.
Typically I'm 18 months in arrears because that's how long it takes the UK Inland Revenue to figure out what I owe them. There is invariably debate over exchange rates, for instance. (2008-09 will be a nightmare). I get no help in sorting my taxes from my employer. I don't even get pay slips these days.
I have always paid my taxes and I have always lived in Scotland. I can think of very few things that would make me leave.
A second level of government income tax is one of them.

Given the contribution of expat workers to Scotland's economy, I think Salmond is playing with fire on this issue and he has to know it. I don't believe he has ever been serious about this, he truly cannot be that stupid.

Incidentally, would you give us a short precis of the current state of "Feu superior"? I thought one of Holyrood's earliest efforts was to rescind most feudal rights. Don't tell me you have to swear fealty to somebody and send him three dozen quail eggs and a pint of mead every Christmas?

I have occasionally wondered if, when a feudal lord demands his dues, the tenant has the right to challenge him to prove his claim in the lists? I suspect the chance of being challenged to duel to the death might lessen the attractions of the system?

ETA-ps- if you decide to go this route, we can start a thread to establish a fighting fund. I'll bung £100 towards your armour.
(You can have it in (Jersey) Henry VIII £5 coins. Bucket of cultural sensitivity there, eh?)

Note that I didn't say which side I was on in the council tax abolition argument. I just thought it was a bit rich of Gray to stand there glibly spouting that after at least 20 years of furious argument he really didn't have any concrete proposal to put forward, just trust him.

Hard cases make bad law, but I certainly think people in your position should be considered and accommodated reasonably in any proposal. I don't know enough of the detail to defend Salmond's proposal as it stands.

I don't know that much about the feu superior system. I know nearly everyone redeemed their feu duty back when I was a teenager, so no money ever has to be paid now. What I didn't entirely pick up on at the time is that this didn't abolish the position of the feu superior. Someone does actually exist who is my feudal superior, and even though I don't know who it is, I start to feel all libertarian Yank when I think about it.

I was discussing with a neighbour the possibility of adding a dormer window to my house. She declared that I'd definitely get objections to such a planning proposal. Fair enough. And the council will decide, after hearing the points of view of all interested parties. Still fair enough. But then she said, the feu superior probably has the right to veto any external alteration to the apperance of the houses.



Was she wrong? Why do we still have these feudal remnants kicking around at all? Why would my alterations not be a matter purely between me, my neighbours and the elected planning authority?

Rolfe.

 

[Soapy Sam]

'Cos you're just a slip of a gel and can't be expected to know what's best for you?


I must check the flat title. Maybe I'm a chattel of His Grace the Duck of Hamilton. Nobody mentioned it when I bought the place. They probably wanted to get rid of me, after the hassle with the stamp duty. I demanded to be shown the stamp. That was hilarious.

Istill reckon the mortal combat notion has much to recommend it though. With all the SF/ RPG dudes here we could probably get you kitted up cheaply. The SAC must have a retired Clydesdale somewhere. You could be a freewoman - or deid of course. Or will you remain some loon's villein the rest of your days? What happened to auld Scotia's martial spirit? Bruce & Loyal Wallace?
OK. I'm gone.

Afterthought- Would your feudal sup be the Sand & Gravel mob?

 

[Rolfe]

No feckin idea. It might be on the deeds or something, but my solicitor hung onto these for safe keeping. I didn't read all the paperwork in detail at the time because I knew this was the house and I didn't want to see anything I might not like.

I want to know how you get to be a feudal superior.

Rolfe.

 

[rwguinn]

Ehhh ... you win a million dollar home, the taxes are about $10,000 a year, you try to keep it and live in it but go bankrupt?

How come they didn't, on the brink of bankrupcy, let me see, I have it: Sell the home for what they could get for it? Half a million, maybe?

Even if you couldn't pay the taxes at all, the house would probably be auctioned away and I cannot see how it could possibly sell for less than the accumulated taxes.

I don't believe the story is true.

It's also treated as "windfall" income by the IRS.
Win a million bucks worth of something, you also pay income tax on it...

 

[Rolfe]

Hmmm, not sure if that would be the case in Britain or not. Gambling winnings are not subject to tax, and neither are lottery prizes.

Rolfe.

 

[Bjorn]

It's also treated as "windfall" income by the IRS.
Win a million bucks worth of something, you also pay income tax on it...

A million bucks minus income taxes will still not make you go bankrupt ...

 

[Prometheus]

A million bucks minus income taxes will still not make you go bankrupt ...

No, but it's still pretty lame to give someone a beautiful house that they can't live in without going broke. I'd much rather they just sell the thing in advance and give me the cash with taxes already withheld.

 

[rwguinn]

A million bucks minus income taxes will still not make you go bankrupt ...

it will if you only make 20K in other income!
until you sell the thing, you have the "income" without cash flow--and no way to pay the tax....

Rolf:
winnings in the US are taxable, but you get to deduct losings off the top, so the only income is the difference between what you got and what it cost you to "got" it.

 

[Jeff Corey]

I'd take RoboTimbo's comments with a grain of salt.

No state in the USA charges more than about 2% annually in property taxes. On a $100,000 house, you can expect to pay maybe $100 a month in taxes. On that same $100,000 house, you would expect to pay $1000 a month in rent.

Maybe not, but here the towns collect the property tax. About $7,000/year on a $250,000 house.

 

[Bjorn]

No, but it's still pretty lame to give someone a beautiful house that they can't live in without going broke. I'd much rather they just sell the thing in advance and give me the cash with taxes already withheld.

I guess the easy thing would be not to participate in the drawing?

 

[rwguinn]

I guess the easy thing would be not to participate in the drawing?

What! And leave show business?

 

[Prometheus]

I guess the easy thing would be not to participate in the drawing?

You haven't met my wife.