Where can I 'own' land?

[geni]

If I buy land here in America, I still have to pay for it every year.

Is there any countries where if I buy some land I can own it completely?

By definition if you can buy it you can't own it completely (because that means that the state can enforce your contract of purchase). Allodial title does sort of exist in a few places but since allodial title land cannot be sold it's only really of use to normadic Aboriginal groups where there is isn't really a concept of owning land.

 

[Prometheus]

Ehhh ... you win a million dollar home, the taxes are about $10,000 a year, you try to keep it and live in it but go bankrupt?

How come they didn't, on the brink of bankrupcy, let me see, I have it: Sell the home for what they could get for it? Half a million, maybe?

Even if you couldn't pay the taxes at all, the house would probably be auctioned away and I cannot see how it could possibly sell for less than the accumulated taxes.

I don't believe the story is true.

I was inaccurate in using the term 'bankrupt'. Here's the story:

http://money.aol.com/cnnmoney/reale...swallowed-don-and-shelly/20060627161909990001

 

[Third Eye Open]

You can claim whatever you like; whether or not others respect your claim is another matter!


Claims to land have one origin, and one origin only: brute force. If you have no means to force others to respect your claim, no one has any reason to respect it.

Huh, that's a great point actually. If I think of the property tax as me paying the government to enforce my claim to the land, then it doesn't seem so bad to pay it.

 

[Bjorn]

I was inaccurate in using the term 'bankrupt'. Here's the story:

http://money.aol.com/cnnmoney/reale...swallowed-don-and-shelly/20060627161909990001

most of the rest [of the winners] sold, happily pocketing the cash. The Cruzes say they too had offers, for millions

they had to take out a loan to pay off a $672,000 tax bill

they had the $250,000 in cash that they'd won with the house

Don Cruz believes his family can live comfortably off the sale of the Tyler house, even if they get only $1.75 million.

After paying back the loan they took out for their tax bill, they'd have $1 million left.

Seems faaaaar from bankrupcy to me - more like a million net after taxes ...

 

[Prometheus]

Seems faaaaar from bankrupcy to me - more like a million net after taxes ...

Shhh! My wife will hear you!

 

[Free Thinkr]

Huh, that's a great point actually. If I think of the property tax as me paying the government to enforce my claim to the land, then it doesn't seem so bad to pay it.

Yes, exactly. It's only fair. You should also compensate those deprived of the location for the value of which you deprive them: in other words, your only payment for land should be a payment to the government.

 

[bobrayner]

Yes, exactly. It's only fair. You should also compensate those deprived of the location for the value of which you deprive them: in other words, your only payment for land should be a payment to the government.

Those deprived of the location would, presumably, be the previous owners. Who agreed to sell. We can only assume that they were happy with the price they got. Most land is sold by real people and real businesses, not by governments.

Which government are you thinking of? Local, state/province, national?

 

[Hamradioguy]

Interesting thread. Here in Vermont your property tax ASSEMENT is based on the value of your property, and that assesment varies from town to town. (Want a low tax rate? Live in a town where the local nuke plant pays 90 percent or so of the taxes needed to run the town.) However, what anyone actually ends up paying in taxes is based on income. If you have an average home in an average town and your income is less than $45,000 a year you'll pay the full property tax due but then get a "prebate" in the form of a check from the state. It means you won't pay more than a small percentage of your income in property taxes each year. The formula is rather complex, and depends in part on how much your town spends on per pupil education. But the bottom line is that if your are "low income" you will see a substantial reduction in what you pay for owing property (Homestead plus 2 acres- don't expect to make a killing if you own hundreds of acres.) If this sounds like some sort of socialist/Robin Hood scheme, it sort of is. But folks on the low income end of things don't seem to mind. Those out of staters with a high end condo at the bottom of a big ski area take a less positive view of this.

 

[Bjorn]

There might be some (local?) government expenses here.

Whoever owns a property I assume the fire brigade would try to put out a fire there, there might be roads, power lines, sewage lines etc. running in/out of the area, there's possibly a law enforcement agency ready to protect your property from vandalism or squatters ... at least those are my un-educated reasons why there is a property tax to pay (apart from the fact that if something can be taxed, it will be taxed).

Here in California you pay about 1% of the assessed value - rich or poor - but with some protection, e.g. in the boom years the assessed value of a property couldn't be raised by more than 2% a year, and if you bought at top price around 2005 or so you can have your property re-assessed to reflect the lower prices today.

 

[Blackadder]

I already like Vermont

 

[Bjorn]

Shhh! My wife will hear you!

She's in North Dakota, you're in Bahamas?

 

[quarky]

There are some off the beaten track zones of the U.S. with cheap land and taxes.
Build a shack.

 

[Hittman]

In fact, sometimes you can lose your land simply because someone else has a more productive use for it (some recent SCOTUS BS I remember).

Kelo v. New London. The Supremes ruled that the local politicians can steal your property if they believe someone else will pay higher property tax on it. They essentially repealed the idea of private property in the US.

just because u pay property taxes u feel u don't completely own the land?

What happens if you refuse to pay the tax? You lose the property. Therefore, you don't really own it.

Yes. I would feel like the government owns the land, and I'm paying a fee to them in order to use it. What do you think would happen if I didn't pay my 'rent'? I'd get kicked off the land. If someone is kicking you off land because you didn't pay them, it seems to me that that someone is the one who owns the land.

Bingo.

 

[Free Thinkr]

Those deprived of the location would, presumably, be the previous owners.

No, it's everybody.

Who agreed to sell. We can only assume that they were happy with the price they got. Most land is sold by real people and real businesses, not by governments.

But how did it become property in the first place? Naked aggression.

Which government are you thinking of? Local, state/province, national?

It doesn't matter. The point is, land is property by force only.

 

[Bjorn]

Kelo v. New London. The Supremes ruled that the local politicians can steal your property if they believe someone else will pay higher property tax on it. They essentially repealed the idea of private property in the US.

I thought they had to pay you a fair price for it?

 

[Bjorn]

What happens if you refuse to pay the tax? You lose the property. Therefore, you don't really own it.

You don't lose the property, but it might be sold against your will, the government takes the taxes you owe, and the rest of the money is yours.

It's like many other situations where you owe money - a contractor can, by law, end up with a lien on your property and ultimately force a sale to get his money. He didn't steal it, you didn't "lose it", it's simply a way of collecting debts.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

You don't lose the property, but it might be sold against your will, the government takes the taxes you owe, and the rest of the money is yours.

Also, I think there's an important distinction between money paid to buy a property which is paid to the previous owner, in exchange for the property, etc., and money paid as property tax which is paid to the government, not in exchange for the property, for the purpose of communal benefits (like public schools), and so on.

ETA: I'm ignorant on this, but if you don't pay your property taxes, aren't there other remedies beside you losing ownership that the government might pursue--like garnishing wages? Or is that only allowed for unpaid income taxes?

 

[Bjorn]

ETA: I'm ignorant on this, but if you don't pay your property taxes, aren't there other remedies beside you losing ownership that the government might pursue--like garnishing wages? Or is that only allowed for unpaid income taxes?

I am sure there are other remedies, but I am 100% sure that a lien will be placed on your property (in California) if you don't pay your property taxes on time - and that lien is the first step in a long process that will end with the forced sale/auctioning of your property if you don't pay.

Which is still not stealing.

 

[Miss_Kitt]

I'd take RoboTimbo's comments with a grain of salt.

No state in the USA charges more than about 2% annually in property taxes. On a $100,000 house, you can expect to pay maybe $100 a month in taxes. On that same $100,000 house, you would expect to pay $1000 a month in rent.

Geez! Where can you find property that cheaply?? I mean, a $100K hovel here is still going to be a long way from anything. It's hard to find a condo under that except in some pretty old, pretty small units in undersizerable communities.

Of course, Seattle is considered a "good place to live" and there is ridiculous rent control in place, so the property market is completely distorted.

ETA -- Somewhat more on-topic, Washington is one of the few States without an income tax, so we have a lot of taxes: Sales tax at city/county/state levels; property taxes at same (plus often school district); tax on vehicle annually (which used to be based on value of vehicle but no longer is); special taxes of restaurants and hotels to pay for the sports stadiums in Seattle, etc.

The worst thing about the property tax is that the "assessed value" of recent vintage seems to be market price + 15% and since most mortgage-holders will handle the tax payments for you--they're already handling an escrow account anyway--people don't realize how much they're being charged. Recently, however, we found out why the valuations look like they were made by a crazy man: They were made by a drunk!
http://www.mynorthwest.com/?sid=138330&nid=11

 

[Bob Blaylock]

just because u pay property taxes u feel u don't completely own the land?

It seems to me that part of truly owning anything is the ability to keep it and use it and not be forced legally to give it up. A person who had completely-paid-for home, and enough resources stored therein to survive without needing any outside resources, but who had no income, would be forced to give it all up if he was unable to pay the taxes on it.

Property taxes pay for such things as the public school system. I find it difficult to agree with such support for a system that is failing so horribly that it is producing a generation of people who are so dumb, and so illiterate, that they cannot even spell a simple, common word, such as “you”.

do you not completely own your car because you need a drivers license and have to pay registration fees?

I believe in most states, you can own and operate a vehicle without having to have a driver's license, and without having to register the vehicle, or pay any taxes thereon (other than the sales tax when you bought it), as long as you keep it on your own property. It's only when you take it off of your own private property, and drive it on state-funded public roads, that a vehicle, and your operation of it, falls under any jurisdiction or control of the state.