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Has Christianity kept us from exploring the galaxy?

Actually, I was pointing out that your accusations of unjustified attacks on Christianity as the cause of the "Dark Ages" were unwarranted.
I didn't actually say that. I said that people were sitting around sipping wine and laughing at another perception than theirs. You surely assumed I was speaking of their perception of Christianity. The fall of the Western Roman Empire culminated in Constantines establishment of the eastern. Very little reliable History survives Constantine, his 80 bishops, the cononization of scripture, and the acceptance of trinity. They burned and destroyed many other works. This occurred simultaneously with the disapperance of Alexandria, Carthage, Rome, Ephesus, and Corinth. Very few buildings survived the Earthquakes of the time, which again, was almost precisely 4 baktun ago.
 
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Except for those sentences in which James Fox expresses skepticism of the graph but feels that its validity, or lack thereof, would make for interesting discussion, and proposes another possible cause.

Such joy to be understood! :D

“BAKTUN baby!!!” That should be a CD title or something.

I’ve often wondered what would have happened if some of great libraries like Alexandria had survived. Or if some of the reported Greek and Roman science texts in the Vatican library had been copied and disseminated to places of learning and monasteries during the dark ages.
 
I'd just like to point out here that military conflict has been one of the strongest instigators of technological development the human race has ever seen. During the so-called "Dark Ages", for example (given the definition provided on the poster - see below), we daw the development of metallurgy as we moved from "chain" mail and quilted armour, through the transitional period towards the plate harnesses of the 15th and 16th century, with a corresponding increase in the quality of the steel. Simlutaneously we went from pattern-welded swords and spears that used poor quality iron, through to the development of high-carbon steel blades with highly specialised purposes. Gunpowder made its appearance in the 14th-15th centuries, which is well before the acknowledged start of the Rennaisance, and triggered another sea change in the use of armour on the battlefield.

In short, the so-called "Dark Ages" was not a period of technological stagnation, as the poster suggests. What's more, the poster conflates the Dark Ages with the Mediaeval periods, which historians generally consider distinct. The Dark Ages is usually described as lasting from the fall of the Roman empire in the 4th - 5th Century to the Battle of Hastings in 1066. The Early, Middle and Late Mediaeval periods followed it, lasting until the Rennaisance in the 16th Century.

All in all, the poster is more than a little bit inaccurate on a number of different levels.

As for its humour value, I usually don't find jokes that are based on misunderstandings or falsehoods to be all that funny.

Your dates are incorrect. The Renaissance started in the 14th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

Also, historians hardly ever use the term "dark ages" anymore, the accepted term is Early Middle Ages, lasting from roughly 500 to 1000 CE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Middle_Ages

This was followed by the High Middle Ages, which I can't help but feel was so named because Middle Middle Ages sounds stupid, which covered roughly 1000 to 1300.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Middle_Ages

The Late Middle Ages ran from roughly 1300 to 1500, and ran alongside the Renaissance in many parts of Europe, especially Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Middle_Ages

Other than that, I agree with you.
 
I didn't actually say that. I said that people were sitting around sipping wine and laughing at another perception than theirs. You surely assumed I was speaking of their perception of Christianity.

So, just for the record, you did not accuse anyone of attacking Christianity.

alfalfafour post #9 said:
Just what everybody wants for Christmas. Another Bigoted approach to Christians. Sure, just blame all of Christiandom for the actions of a few Popes.

post #11 said:
Did he happen to mention how the Chinese or the Aboriginal Austrailians managed to develop the steam engine and wireless communications while the rest of the world was so burdened by Christianity?

post #13 said:
If they had it, they got it from one of those poor deprived societies so burdened by Christian dogma. Those unfortunate ....

post #20 said:
Why do you need waste any resources? Using your resources to fight Christianity allowed about 36 million people to starve in the word in 2006. Christians, of which I am not one, spent lots of money trying to feed many of those babies. Of course the big anti force associated with that was the Catholic Church stance on Family planning. You can't lump all Christians into a courtroom in rural Pennsylvania. Do you guys know the difference between bigotry and skepticism?

post #22 said:
Ok, I am calm. I don't take bigoted comments about Christianity personally. I am not a Christian. Do you want to approach the topic at hand, or do we all get to hear more about those bad, bad Christians and their bad, bad God?

post #26 said:
how about we focus on Chritianity as it relates to Galactic Study, or maybe just focus on how bigoted comments have managed to lead us away from actual discussion of the Galactic Exporation.

post #36 said:
Is the topic in any way directed towards Galactic understanding, or am I mistaken, and it is just another thread to bash Christianity?

That seems a bit redundant. Maybe they should remove the thread and change this from a skeptics forum to a Christian bashing forum?

Does the chart above represent the acceleration of Christian Bashing?

post #59 said:
Maybe the subject line?

"Has Christianity kept us from exploring the galaxy? "

Perhaps it was athiest blinders that "kept us from exploring the galaxy?

Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Explore the Galaxy,Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.Attack Christians.

Can we find the subject line?

post #73 said:
Because you have a prejudiced viewpoint that would rather feast on insulting insinuation than focus on the subject line. Go ahead, enjoy some more wisecracks at my expense, or the expense of Christians who aren't even here.

post #81 said:
That is to say that we are chasing the Red Herrings which point to the false dichotomy, and are free to make ad hominems against all Christians. What a fun group.
 
Did he happen to mention how the Chinese or the Aboriginal Austrailians managed to develop the steam engine and wireless communications while the rest of the world was so burdened by Christianity

Why the hell are you bashing the Chinese? They came up with wonderful inventions far before the Middle Ages in Europe ever existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Or were you actually not being facetious?
 
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What was it that you were reading? This isn't a criticism, I've been delving into the Crusades and the surrounding time period recently, and I'm interested to read up on this particular aspect.

Good question. But it's been so long since I read that, I can only guess its source.

My guess is "Guns, Germs, and Steel". If it's not that, then I have less than no dea.
 
Such joy to be understood! :D

“BAKTUN baby!!!” That should be a CD title or something.

I’ve often wondered what would have happened if some of great libraries like Alexandria had survived. Or if some of the reported Greek and Roman science texts in the Vatican library had been copied and disseminated to places of learning and monasteries during the dark ages.


they do say that the library at Alexandria was unequalled for the time. You know they also had those persistant plagues during the dark ages. I believe there were two separate episodes. Then they had the Muslim conquest which acquired Andalusia and fought it's way to the gates of Vienna. I know the Muslims brought knowledge with them, but they also brought the Caliphate and likely many of the restrictions we know as Islam today. The Muslims actuallly carried with them many of the old books and as far I know, even acquired more. I have heard that some research did flourish under the Andalusian governing bodies.
 
So, I haven't read all posts but I was wondering if there has been any mention in this thread of the current project NASA has to launch an orbiting Telescope by the name of Kepler, which will keep track of a specific region of the galaxy for I don't remember how many years, to study stars and see if they can find any other planets like ours.

This seems like a rather magnificent advance. Sagan would be proud.
 
Why the hell are you bashing the Chinese? They came up with wonderful inventions far before the Middle Ages in Europe ever existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Or were you just being sarcastic?

I think alfalfafour's problem is a failure to understand the issue being discussed. He/she doesn't understand that the question is "did Christianity, or any other religion or philosophy impede the rate of scientific advancement and, had these retarding factors not been of influence, could the rate of advancement been rapid enough that our present level of technological achievement could have been reached long ago and far surpassed by now". Failing to understand this, alfalfafour asks about steam powered spaceships and the like.
 
Regarding the term "Dark Ages" it is interesting to note that the equivalent does not exist in French. You can translate it by "Ages sombres" but I have never seen it used anywhere.

The usual term to describe the period is "Moyen Age" which is the direct equivalent of "Middle Age".

The (French) Wikipedia article seems to infer that "Dark Age" is essentially used in the Anglo Saxon world.

It does not mean that the Moyen Age is considered as a Golden Age either, but generally there is less emphasis on the negative undertone.

It would be interesting if German, Spanish, Italian, etc speakers could enlighten us about the use of Middle or Dark Age in their native language.
 
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I think alfalfafour's problem is a failure to understand the issue being discussed. He/she doesn't understand that the question is "did Christianity, or any other religion or philosophy impede the rate of scientific advancement and, had these retarding factors not been of influence, could the rate of advancement been rapid enough that our present level of technological achievement could have been reached long ago and far surpassed by now". Failing to understand this, alfalfafour asks about steam powered spaceships and the like.
Actually I simply misunderstood the subject to be Galactic study specifically, and not science generally, and become a little flustered after believing that Sagan had specifically mentioned Christianity as a cause for not exploring the galaxy, in the context of what I thought was a discussion specifically about galactic exploration.


Again, I will try to avoid taking the subject line as the meaning of the thread subject and assuming that graphs are specifically in reference to the subject line.
 
It does turn out that Sagan seems to blame "religious and superstitious" societies, and I just wonder how the Chinesw with there Buddhist "non-religious" philosophy and greater number of citizens managed to fit into the repessive scheme, and fell behind the Christian and Deist based works?

Of course we do realize that Sir Francis Bacon, the Father of inductive reason, and author of the scientific method was a "superstitious" Deist, do we not?
 
It does turn out that Sagan seems to blame "religious and superstitious" societies, and I just wonder how the Chinesw with there Buddhist "non-religious" philosophy and greater number of citizens managed to fit into the repessive scheme, and fell behind the Christian and Deist based works?
So now you're claiming Deist as your own? Great.

Buddhism, Taoism and ancestor worship as practiced by the Chinese was a religion and superstitious and their political nonsense based on the worship of an Emperor and autocratic system led to their decline. So Sagan is correct.
Of course we do realize that Sir Francis Bacon, the Father of inductive reason, and author of the scientific method was a "superstitious" Deist, do we not?
So? And that's relevant how?
You may want to seriously look at what Deism really is.
 
It does turn out that Sagan seems to blame "religious and superstitious" societies, and I just wonder how the Chinesw with there Buddhist "non-religious" philosophy and greater number of citizens managed to fit into the repessive scheme, and fell behind the Christian and Deist based works?

Of course we do realize that Sir Francis Bacon, the Father of inductive reason, and author of the scientific method was a "superstitious" Deist, do we not?

Yeah, we do. Make a point.

Never mind; I will.

Magical and wishful thinking tend to impede critical thought, rather than further it. Most people aren't anywhere near as smart as Bacon, and won't manage to pull anything useful out of their particular sludge-filled claptrap ponds except more claptrap. Being a deist isn't exactly non-magical thinking, but it's a sight removed from trusting zombie jesus flesh wafers and a nice glass of blood to make evil flee.
 
Buddhism, Taoism and ancestor worship as practiced by the Chinese was a religion and superstitious and their political nonsense based on the worship of an Emperor and autocratic system led to their decline. So Sagan is correct.

While Buddhism and Taoism certainly are religions, I think you'll find that the history of China and their decline have almost nothing to do with it.

First of all, China was not the HRE. The leadership and politics of China were _not_ primarily based on any religion, but on various schools of philosophy about how a perfect society should work. Probably the best known is Confucianism, but other currents which fought for the top spot included legalism, mohism, etc.

Confucianism is not a religion. It's an ultra-conservative old fart's "know your place and stay off my lawn" philosophy. When it preaches stuff like that a son doesn't even have any free will, to the extent that you can't even judge someone until 3 years after his father's death, because until then he must do only what his father says, like a brainless robot... it's not some "because otherwise you'll burn in hell", but just pretty much "because that's the right way." When he even touch religious topics at all, like that some noble went on a pilgrimage that only the Emperor was supposed to do, it's not from a "the gods will surely punish him" angle, but merely that it was not his place and that's not how a proper member of society should act.

And also the most enforced for the last millenium or so of their empire. To even apply for any government job, you had to go through the imperial examination and prove that you know your Confucius by heart.

It did give them a certain inflexibility, because it was a very inflexible philosophy, but it was a philosophy not a religion anyway.

Second, the big decline of China actually had nothing to do with adopting any given religion or philosophy, but with the Qing (manchu) dynasty. They were confucian and buddhist before the manchu takeover, and they were confucian and buddhist after, but you can see how they went from steady progress (although slowed considerably during Ming isolationism) to sharp decline almost overnight.

Contrary to popular "china invented gunpowder but not guns" ideas, they had actually had guns, flamethrowers, rockets used as artillery, etc. They actually devolved to swords and polearms during the Qing dynasty. So by the time of the opium wars, yeah, the Brits faced whole divisions of guys with heavy polearms charging at the guns.

The Qing had their own weird ideas and fixations that were neither properly chinese nor confucian nor buddhist. E.g., they went and enforced their own haircut upon the population, with IIRC the death penalty for having a different haircut.

Corruption during the Qing also reached unprecedented levels. The most surrealistic of example of it is probably in the Battle Of Yalu River in 1894. Some intrepid souls had actually stolen and sold off two main guns off the admiral's battleship. Roll that around in your head: main guns off a bloody battleship. And nobody "noticed." That's some corruption or what? Or, get this, the company making the shells had replaced the cordite in them with sawdust and cement and split the profit with the corrupt officials who were supposed to check. Or the admiral's second in command (no doubt, a fellow with connections) refused to relay the order to deploy in battle line, because, hey, then the Japanese could shoot at the ship he's on, and he's not gonna risk his life for his country.

So basically you don't even really see the effects of religion or woowoo thinking in the Chinese decline, but merely the effects of a bad dynasty. Better yet, one who thought they can return to the good ol' medieval times.
 
It would be interesting if German, Spanish, Italian, etc speakers could enlighten us about the use of Middle or Dark Age in their native language.

Mittelalter - German
Middelalder - Danish
Medeltid - Swedish
Middelalder / mellomalder - Norwegian

Those are all comparable to "middle ages". For Danish, which is the one I can tell you about, it's possible to qualify it further and say "the dark middle ages". Usually done to liken something to the supposedly barbaric or ignorant past.
 
While Buddhism and Taoism certainly are religions, I think you'll find that the history of China and their decline have almost nothing to do with it.

First of all, China was not the HRE. The leadership and politics of China were _not_ primarily based on any religion, but on various schools of philosophy about how a perfect society should work. Probably the best known is Confucianism, but other currents which fought for the top spot included legalism, mohism, etc.

Confucianism is not a religion. It's an ultra-conservative old fart's "know your place and stay off my lawn" philosophy. When it preaches stuff like that a son doesn't even have any free will, to the extent that you can't even judge someone until 3 years after his father's death, because until then he must do only what his father says, like a brainless robot... it's not some "because otherwise you'll burn in hell", but just pretty much "because that's the right way." When he even touch religious topics at all, like that some noble went on a pilgrimage that only the Emperor was supposed to do, it's not from a "the gods will surely punish him" angle, but merely that it was not his place and that's not how a proper member of society should act.

And also the most enforced for the last millenium or so of their empire. To even apply for any government job, you had to go through the imperial examination and prove that you know your Confucius by heart.

It did give them a certain inflexibility, because it was a very inflexible philosophy, but it was a philosophy not a religion anyway.

Second, the big decline of China actually had nothing to do with adopting any given religion or philosophy, but with the Qing (manchu) dynasty. They were confucian and buddhist before the manchu takeover, and they were confucian and buddhist after, but you can see how they went from steady progress (although slowed considerably during Ming isolationism) to sharp decline almost overnight.

Contrary to popular "china invented gunpowder but not guns" ideas, they had actually had guns, flamethrowers, rockets used as artillery, etc. They actually devolved to swords and polearms during the Qing dynasty. So by the time of the opium wars, yeah, the Brits faced whole divisions of guys with heavy polearms charging at the guns.

The Qing had their own weird ideas and fixations that were neither properly chinese nor confucian nor buddhist. E.g., they went and enforced their own haircut upon the population, with IIRC the death penalty for having a different haircut.

Corruption during the Qing also reached unprecedented levels. The most surrealistic of example of it is probably in the Battle Of Yalu River in 1894. Some intrepid souls had actually stolen and sold off two main guns off the admiral's battleship. Roll that around in your head: main guns off a bloody battleship. And nobody "noticed." That's some corruption or what? Or, get this, the company making the shells had replaced the cordite in them with sawdust and cement and split the profit with the corrupt officials who were supposed to check. Or the admiral's second in command (no doubt, a fellow with connections) refused to relay the order to deploy in battle line, because, hey, then the Japanese could shoot at the ship he's on, and he's not gonna risk his life for his country.

So basically you don't even really see the effects of religion or woowoo thinking in the Chinese decline, but merely the effects of a bad dynasty. Better yet, one who thought they can return to the good ol' medieval times.
I know.

Great post but while my statement was very basic, their religion and philosophy based on Confucionistic, Taoist and animistic beliefs were major parts of how China functioned and also led to their downfall. Logic didn't really play much of a role as a philosphy in China except for some Monist logician sects.

The major issue that led to the decline of China was primarily hubris. Chinas was the center of the world, no others could challenge them. This partially(along with politics) led to the ban of sea trade and exploration in the late 14th century. The gradual rise of authoritarian legalism and infighting among court politicians and extreme isolationism and xenophobia played a major role in the decline of China as well.
 
On the term "dark ages". I always thought the reason that term was used was because the historians that coined it considered that they had very little knowledge of that period so it was really a label reflecting their knowledge of the period rather than a description of that period.
 

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