Moderated Steel structures cannot globally collapse due to gravity alone

Err... how does a perceived shortcoming of the BZ paper imply that NIST didn't explain the collapse?
Now there's a stupid question.

Quote mining to state the conclusion as if it where a fact does not help you.
The term "quote mining" is used by deniers to try to diminish facts presented. It doesn't wash.

NIST clearly stated in their response to STj:

"NIST has stated that it did not analyze the collapse of the towers."

Continued denial that this means exactly what it says is just more proof that OCTers cannot accept a reality that goes against the OCT.

It has been demonstrated to you that NIST did in fact explain the collapse.
Absolutely not!

If you disagree with the explanation provided you should be able to point out where and why it is inadequate.
The NIST FAQ is absurd as I have pointed out.
[FONT=&quot]
"Thus, more than the 12 to 29 floors reported above actually loaded the intact floor suddenly."[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]They have all the floors above the first intact floor to be impacted arriving at the same time. That is not what happened.

The floors above the collapse zone were attached to the core and perimeter columns. When the collapse started, the weight of all but one of those floors and the rubble from the plane impact was on the exterior and core columns, not the truss seat connections between the primary floor trusses and the exterior wall columns or core columns.


[/FONT]
 
what was the temperature strength of the wtc steel when it was casted? how many times have you been to Kobe steel in Cleveland?
So now, WF sections are CAST?
We gotta reduce strength by 25% in all calculations due to porosity, and it's going to cost a lot more, since they can only do 1 at a time, and have to scrap all that extrusion tooling.
There is nothing cuter than a wanna-be attempting to use engineering terms he has no clue about
 
the steel in the wtc was designed and pouted for that, you see the steel was known, specified, poured, rolled and other things specifically for the wtc. that being a high rise structure, should a plane ever, say, crash into the building, the chances of a jet fuel fire would occur

would you agree that the chances of a jet or other plane at any time, in the designer's and architech's mind, do you think that they took into effect the odds of the 2 largest wtc structures would be struck, at some small or large percentage, that planes might hit the wtc?

now ask yourself, what could I, as an architect, as a designer do, to make sure that the buildings would never completly and totally collapse?

would you specify steel that would survive normal jet fuel A burn temperatures as well as all the other hydro-carbon burnable office materials contained with in the structure

would you design the building so that numerous strikes could occur, could hit the structure and survivability would be not only expected, but guranteed?

You see, any architect or designer will tell you that the most glaring, the most prominent, the highest focused concern in designing a large building is survivability of the occupants as well as the structure itself.

This is why buildings are designed for impact and for crashability, for imapact absorption, much the same as a vehicle where it is designed for the occupants to survive a crash, head on or other wise

Some of those things were planned for. But not to the extent that you claim. However, you did not answer the question that I asked:

What is the evidence, hard evidence, that steel does not lose strength, at all, until 4000 degrees F?
 
What is the evidence, hard evidence, that steel does not lose strength, at all, until 4000 degrees F?

Seconded. Let's add it to the list:

Just point us to the posts then, Bob, because we're calling you on it.

(a) my apology and a concession that yes, I am qualified in this field

(b) digging out the space elevator designs

(c) responding to the detailed post re: fire performance.

(d) tell us where you get 90% from. Let's see the proof.

(e) the posts where we all agreed that the steel building which collapsed was a "shed".

(f) evidence that the steel in the WTC was designed to the performance criteria you claim.
 
the steel in the wtc was designed and pouted for that, you see the steel was known, specified, poured, rolled and other things specifically for the wtc. that being a high rise structure, should a plane ever, say, crash into the building, the chances of a jet fuel fire would occur
Could you provide a source for this Bob?
 
Since bob the analyst apparently has new insight into the performance of steel and claims a high degree of knowledge on materials testing/performance, I’d like to invite him to visit the place I work and impart some of this knowledge to my coworkers.

I believe there would be high attendance at his lecture from the folks in our Metals and Ceramics Division as well as our Materials Testing and Evaluation group and our Structural Failure Analysis group.

The question and answer period following his lecture would be quite lively, I predict.

Here's where I work: http://www.ml.afrl.af.mil/
 
yes, our buddy teddy is infamous at doing that, especially on joints and members where the steel is always has stress relief, you see, anyplace and anytime there is a steel joint, whether it is on an aplliace door, pedails mounted to a bicycle sprocket or the joints and mounting points of a 110 story office building, the worst case scenario is tested...repeatedkly tested and 10 times the maximum expected force, in this case I believe that the joints would be tested for 1 million hits of striking in duty cycles by a 727jet, all this done both in minus 50 degree chambers and 3800 degree ovens.
This is fantastic!

where the steel is always has stress relief
What does this sentence mean? Are you saying the steel is stress relieved? If you are saying this then why is the steel stress relieved? (This is a rhetorical question, but I need a laugh)

Spelling: Appliance, pedals, repeatedly - you must take more care - it makes you look silly when you can't spell.

pedails mounted to a bicycle sprocket
/Pedant mode - pedals are connected to cranks which form (with the sprockets/chainrings) a chainset. They are only joined because the pedal axles have a thread (left handed on the left one) and screw into corresponding holes on the cranks. I don't know why this interface would have to be stress relief, I mean stress relieved. As for the testing of this interface, it's not required because you can calculate the required strength using mathematics and mechanics and by using material property data to choose a material that is going to be above your chosen safety factor.

the worst case scenario is tested...repeatedkly tested and 10 times the maximum expected force,
A safety factor of 10 eh. PMSL. Even in pressure vessels, which have probably the highest safety factor in modern engineering, the safety factor is between 3 and 4. If we had Bob designing stuff it would be enormously heavy. Hell we'd never have aircraft because they would be too heavy to hold off the ground with an undercarriage let alone get off the ground.

in this case I believe that the joints would be tested for 1 million hits of striking in duty cycles by a 727jet, all this done both in minus 50 degree chambers and 3800 degree ovens.
OK - I think what he is alluding to is fatigue testing (but I can't be sure). It's very hard to run a million cycles when the fatigue load you are using is 10 times the yield stress of the material you are using.

For non-engineers.

It means that you'd break the specimen on the first cycle! You'd need a million specimens.



For each temperature tested.


For 200°C intervals, between -50 and 3800 (I assume that's Fahrenheit, although why you need anoven furnace capable of this for steel I have no idea) - 11 heats would be needed which equates to

11 million specimens required to be tested!


I plan and manage material property testing and analyse the results in order to produce material property data for engineers to use as the main part of my job. I'd love to see the look on the face of a project manager as I told him his testing data cost would be in the hundreds of millions of pounds!

Why on earth would you want to do fatigue testing at -50°C for a product that is never going to see that operating temperature? You need a minimum of 6 test specimens for a general fatigue curve (which can then be used with a fatigue factor and safety limit) and only one of these specimens would need to run past 100,000 or a million cycles to attain a fatigue limit. I'm getting the feeling that Bob may have once spoken to people working in the aerospace industry, because in that industry it's quite routine to do tensile testing between -50 to +120°C. Infact I've done cryogenic tensile testing when I worked for a company that builds satellites; it's a PITA and costly because it takes specialised equipment and longer time.

The whole point of producing material property data is so that the engineer can perform (stress/life etc) calculations so that we don't have to go into extraordinary expense and test full scale structures. Imagine if building codes said you had to destructively test two buildings before you could build the one to be used!


humidity testing, salt spray, vibration--not sure if you have ever seen shaker tables for example


dozens--hundreds of tests
/facepalm - why on earth would you want to do these tests when they have absolutely no bearing on the structure in question and which the building codes do not in anyway specify? Madness!

Humidity testing is usually used to assess (mostly electrical) components and systems that will be exposed to such conditions. This is usually done for military aircraft because they need to operate in these climates.

Salt Spray! LOL - why on earth would you want to do salt spray testing on steel for a building that is never going to see that environment? Crazy. Salt spray tests are usually done to ensure that aircraft engines and gearboxes etc do not corrode when exposed to salt for long periods eg: coast guard helicopters/aircraft carrier jets. It's not applicable to WTC.

Vibration? Again it's not applicable. I'm actually quite well versed. because this is a subset of material property data and I once wrote an entire "environmental test plan" for the Future Lynx helicopter gearbox whist working for Westland Transmissions (now part of Westland Augusta) back in 2000. These sorts of tests are military aerospace standards and not applicable to building codes.

Bob is trying to bamboozle people with lots of names for tests and using his minute knowledge and appalling technical wording to make himself appear better informed. Unfortunately he didn't calculate that there would be someone in the room who not only steals suns, but analyst's thunder too. ;)

Apologies for a long post but exposing the fraudulent is quite fun.
 
what was the temperature strength of the wtc steel when it was casted? how many times have you been to Kobe steel in Cleveland?


Temperature strength? When it was "casted"???

listen up Bob, riddle me this. How many grades of steel were originally specified for the construction of the wtc towers, and how many grades were actually used?
 
the charts and graphs correctly show what the JIST report failed to convey to the public, that the heat and temperatures did not corrupt the steel to the need point of failure...this is what this whole 9/11 and wtc charade is all about and why 90% of common, everyday people, engineers and scientists alike, tradesmen, welders, technicians, firemen, pilots, health care workers, and more skills all see the NIST report as incomplete and ficticious
No - the graph I posted is called a TTT graph or curve. TTT stands for Time Temperature Transformation. It is used in order to determine the type of micro-structure (and therefore property of a steel) produced when cooling steels at varying rates. You can see that a high cooling rate (steep curve) will result in the formation of martensite. Lower cooling rates will produce different structures and we wish to tailor those structures, so for example, A36 steel has a pearlite and ferrite microstructure and will be air cooled.
 
Since bob the analyst apparently has new insight into the performance of steel and claims a high degree of knowledge on materials testing/performance, I’d like to invite him to visit the place I work and impart some of this knowledge to my coworkers.

I believe there would be high attendance at his lecture from the folks in our Metals and Ceramics Division as well as our Materials Testing and Evaluation group and our Structural Failure Analysis group.

The question and answer period following his lecture would be quite lively, I predict.

Here's where I work: http://www.ml.afrl.af.mil/

Just so long as he solemnly swears to share with us, one and all, how steel is properly "casted": I shall know sweet, sweet fulfillment.;)
 
CBS and WTC7

CBS reports the ollapse of WT
(Note: This dates from July of 2008. It wasn't circulated very well, that's for sure. -rep.)
Local Chico, California CBS station airs piece on the Truth movement.
They actually presented it as news in a non-judgmental, journalistic manner. They also showed three views of the collapse of WTC 7. They get it! They showed it!
This needs to go viral. So far, it's only had 368 views. People should be encouraged to send the URL for this video or a copy to their local TV stations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEn_6vqp17Y&NR=1 CBS and WTC7
 
You're right, but what kind of proof are you looking for? Why is "plausible" not enough?
My point is, The Official Collapse Theory is just a theory.

You see, I'm not an engineer. So when I look at video of an implosion, or whatever you're saying, it means nothing to me.
You don't have to be an expert to recognize a CD. High rise steel frame buildings do not fall straight down unless they have been demolished in a CD.
This is not rocket surgery. A 12 year old can easily recognize a CD when they see one.

I don't have any expert opinion, and any I tried to form would be ill-advised. That's just common sense, right?
No, it's denial.

So, to me, this isn't really about "proof." Proof is impossible anyway.
Not so. NIST has admitted that WTC 7 fell at free fall for 105 feet. This is not possible in the progressive collapse NIST proposes. Furthermore, their computer model does not fall at free fall.

Free fall is only possible in a CD.

What it's really about are two competing theories, and the plausibility of both. On the one hand, the idea that the buildings collapsed due to fire, is to me, plausible, simply because that's what the experts say.
There are many experts who say otherwise.

On the other hand, the theory that there was a controlled demolition is less plausible, for a lot of reasons. It just seems to me that an enormous amount of co-ordination would be required to do that, and it seems amazing that nobody would have noticed, and furthermore that nobody has blown the whistle on this yet is also incredible.
This is just personal incredulity and has no factual basis.

Anyway, it seems like you're using the word "theory" to mean guess.
Yes, theory means "speculation".

Since no one can go back in time and examine the actual building before it blew up, isn't a plausible guess the most we could possibly expect?
No!

Why do you expect them to "prove" it to you? How do you think they could that? I'm just a little unclear about that.
Because a child can see that it was a CD.
The explanation proposed by NIST is not plausible much less possible.

The NIST report is riddled with distortions, omissions and outright lies. Have you read it?

Before bilndly accepting what your government tells you like a mindless sheep, do a little research, read the insipid piece of dribble that NIST put out.
 
If steel retains 100% of it's strength upto 4000°F then why do we use Nickel based super alloys in gas turbines?

Why have companies such as Rolls Royce, GEC, Pratt & Whitney spent millions in development of alternative materials that can withstand 1200°C (2200°F) when bog standard, dirt cheap, plain carbon steels will do the job perfectly adequately at a fraction of the cost?

Bob - can you please answer this question?
 
Evidently your eyes and ears work differently to mine. the best I can do is repost an exerpt from of my post ad allow people to decide forhemselves and to post the video again for reference.

''I agree that people occasonally use the word 'explosion' somewhat incorrectly but this will seldom occur in the ranks of expert professional firefighters and never in such numbers in the space of an hour or two on a single day. 118 firefighters reported exploions that day and testified to them. Not trivial explosons either but explosions they clearly thought had something to do with the collapse. 'That friggin' noise.....pop-pop-pop-pop-pop...like you hear when they bring a building down'. 'We saw low-level flashes and then the building started to come down' ''Threw me 40 feet and I was covered with hat white *****' 'flashes going up and down and all around the building' Lots more like that.''
'flashes going up and down and all around the building' Lots more like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firefighter Tstimony - study

The video you posted is refuted here soundly.
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/whattheyheard
 
chris,

"Converting this entirely into linear velocity gives about 83 ft/sec = 56 mph"

This double talk doesn't say what is moving at 56 mph. Is it one end of the beam or the whole beam?

How does this energy get converted into horizontal velocity?
In order for the 'flicker factor' to work, one end must be held stationary so how can this stored energy eject a beam that is firmly held at one end?

Edited by chillzero: 
Moderated thread
The fact that you don't understand something does make it "double talk".

To anyone who is knowledgeable about physics, my statement in clear. And is make more clear by the following discussion about rotational energy. The total energy represented by a moving, rotating object is the combination of the linear kinetic energy (1/2 m v2) plus the rotational kinetic energy (1/2 Ixx ω2), where Ixx = the rotational moment of inertia about the x axis, and ω is the rotational speed.

It turns out that 56 mph is the linear velocity that one would get if you turned ALL of the internal energy into LINEAR velocity. That means the speed of the CG (center of gravity) of the beam. There is a relationship between the linear velocity and the rotational velocity of anything that is thrown as proposed. The tip moves twice as fast as the CG. It turns out that when you input that constraint for the dimensions of a thin walled tube, the rotational energy is trivial compared to the linear energy. (I was surprised by this, so I double checked.)

Allowing for the rotational energy is PRECISELY why I dropped the linear speed from 56 mph to 54 mph.

I specifically did not get into "how to release" it. This is the type of specious argument that you've been bringing up constantly. The SPECIFIC question that ole bill was jabbering about (it turns out incorrectly) was that there was "only enough energy storage capability in a steel box column, without kinking, to be thrown a couple dozen feet. But never 200, 400 or 500 feet."

It turns out that he was dead wrong. (How unsurprising.) As I calculated, if one were to intentionally devise anchoring system that would allow you to pull back on the beam & arc it like a bow, and then cut the string, then it WOULD fly out at about 75 mph (remember that 54 mph was for a cantilever beam. You can get twice as much energy stored in a uniformly arced beam, for 41% more speed. Remember, energy goes as speed squared.

As a direct result of this horizontal speed, if you fling this from an altitude of 1000', it'll travel about 800' horizontally. I don't know why this is surprising to you. Go get a 1" x 1" x 36" long steel box channel from Home Depot. Put it on a short stumpy post. Make sure that it can rotate onto and off of the post easily from one direction only. Put it on the post, pull back really hard on the top until it bends into a serious arc, and then let it go. See how far you can throw it. Now scale everything up enormously, and stick the beam 1000' in the air. There is NOTHING surprising about this phenomenon.

BTW, I have not seen your response to my illustration of this effect using a credit card. Are the principles of mechanically converting slow motion to fast motion & of mechanically converting vertical motion to horizontal motion getting thru to you? Or are you really not interested in the truth?

tom
 
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This is an insult to all the firefighters who reported explosions.


Yes indeed, well over 100 of them..not a small sample by any means.

And indeed such a latge number that the government fought tooth and nail to keep those testimonies sealed for years.

Now why would anybody seek to sweep testimonies under the rug and out of the public view if they werent absolute poison to the "official lie".

But yet post a few that werent in its delusional rendering of events(911 commision report)

I'm approving this as a reply to another post, but any further discussion on the firemen should be taken to another thread.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero
 
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Because a child can see that it was a CD.

Can that same hypothetical child just as readily "see" that any explosion (or series of explosions) capable of bringing down (for instance) WTC 7 would leave incontrovertible evidence of their occurrence in the seismographic record for that place and time, as well?

Because that's the absolute barest minimum I'd expect from any child not cruelly suffering from some peculiarly debilitating form of major skull trauma or somesuch, quite frankly.
 
My point is, The Official Collapse Theory is just a theory.

Sure. But it's the theory that makes the most sense to me. I guess you see things differently, I just don't understand why.

You don't have to be an expert to recognize a CD. High rise steel frame buildings do not fall straight down unless they have been demolished in a CD. This is not rocket surgery. A 12 year old can easily recognize a CD when they see one.

Sure, a 12 year old could probably recognize it, if you explain it in those simplified terms. The problem I'm having, though, is that it seems to me like the WTC may not be falling "straight down" as you say. To me, it seems hard to tell that from looking at the video.

I can also easily imagine a scenario where a 12 year old looks at a video, declares that the building is falling "staight down," and then be wrong. It's possible that the way it appears to be falling in the video could be misleading, or maybe the resolution isn't sufficient to make judgments like that. What do you think?

No, it's denial.

It's denial to rely on expert opinions about subjects you don't know a lot about? Why do you say that?

Not so. NIST has admitted that WTC 7 fell at free fall for 105 feet. This is not possible in the progressive collapse NIST proposes. Furthermore, their computer model does not fall at free fall.

So, you're saying that the report is contradictory? NIST admits that there was some "freefall," but "freefall" is only possible in a CD, is that it?

There are many experts who say otherwise.

I've only heard of a few. It seems like the majority of experts say that fire can cause a structure to collapse, and say that the "freefall" thing you're talking about is nonsense. But I admit, I don't fully understand it. When I read debates and opinions on both sides, it always seems to me like the experts explaining why it is NOT a CD are better informed. But that's just from my perspective.

This is just personal incredulity and has no factual basis.

You are exactly right. I'm just saying that without any evidence to the contrary, I'm going with the theory that is more plausible. If there is real evidence to the contrary, I'm willing to re-examine the idea that it is a controlled demolition.

Yes, theory means "speculation".

Well, it depends. That's the colloquial way of using the word. In science, theory is used more like: "a way to unite and explain facts." So it's not just a guess, but a way to link various facts together and form an explanation. At least, that's the way I've had it explained to me.

Because a child can see that it was a CD.
The explanation proposed by NIST is not plausible much less possible.

The NIST report is riddled with distortions, omissions and outright lies. Have you read it?

Before bilndly accepting what your government tells you like a mindless sheep, do a little research, read the insipid piece of dribble that NIST put out.

Yes, but like I said before children only know what we tell them. They aren't experts about anything. If a child looks at video footage and identified it as CD, and if an expert looks at video footage and says it's impossible to know from looking at that footage, I'm going with the expert. Don't you think that makes sense?

But you're right, I don't want to blindly accept anything. I've read arguements on both sides. That's also part of the reason why I am here, to hear intelligent arguements from both sides, and to read an analysis of the evidence.
 

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