Molten Steel
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BigAl
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You can't show us a single conformable eyewitness to molten metal on the pile. There was no solidified puddles of molten steel found in the pile. We know that all the rubble was sorted down to finger-nail-sized bits to find body parts and other bit is aid to identification.
You forget to mention the corporate "uninterpretable power supply" ("UPS") located on the floor where the only example of molten metal was seen.
A UPS consists of many tons on lead-acid batteries and when shorted they can melt everything in sight by electric discharge.
We also know that that jet wreckage wound up right on that corner of that floor. The jet wreckage also had oxygen generators and it is possible that they contributed to the inferno on that floor.
Metal alloys, in general, reduce the melting point of the mixture. We had Lead, aluminum and possibly steel under conditions not unlike a electric arc furnace with added oxygen. It's impossible to determine the temperature of an unknown alloy from photographs.
Whatever we saw coming from that tower, lead and aluminum were much more likely than molten steel.
So we have no solidified molten steel in the pile and no molten steel flowing from the tower. Tell us why you believe any steel was melted on 9/11?
Christopher7
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The following is what is called "A preponderance of evidence".
You can't claim all these people are mistaken.
Anyone claiming that "There is no evidence of molten metal." is simply in denial.
I have seen your "Reason to doubt" file so don't bother posting it again. You cannot dismiss all these statements.
To do so is just denial.
Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of “literally molten steel” at the World Trade Center. (source)
Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for World Trade Centers 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and all subgrade levels, stated "As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running." (source_SEAU.org)
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." said the first structural engineer given access to the WTC steel. (source) (audio)
"I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat." said Chaplain Herb Tripe (source) (audio)
http://web.archive.org/web/20021006003613/http:/www.recordonline.com/adayinseptember/trimpe.htm
A NY firefighter described steel flowing at ground zero. "You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel — molten steel! — running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano. (source) (source) (hi-res_source)
A reporter with rare access to the debris at ground zero "descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." (source) (cached_copy)
The owner of Controlled Demolition Inc., Mark Loizeaux stated the molten steel was found “three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,”. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon. (source)
Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. -Sarah Atlas of New Jersey’s Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue (source_upenn.edu)
"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel." (source_jhsph.edu)
A veteran of disasters from the Mississippi floods Mt. St. Helens, Burger said it reminded him most of the volcano, if he forgot he was in downtown Manhattan. “Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helen’s and the thousands who fled that disaster,” he said. Additionally he stated "Shards of steel lay upon shards of steel, shifting and unstable, uncovering red hot metal beams excavated from deep beneath layers of sub-floors, exposing further dark crevasses." (source_neha.org)
"They showed us many fascinating slides" he continued, "ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster." -Dr Keith Eaton (source_istructe.org.uk)
"Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots." -Guy Lounsbury of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing (source)
A NY Department of Sanitation spokeswoman said "for about two and a half months after the attacks, in addition to its regular duties, NYDS played a major role in debris removal - everything from molten steel beams to human remains...." (source)
"the ominous groaning of weakened structures overhead, or, in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole." -William Langewiesche (source_p32) (cached_copy)
He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam–but found no signs of life. -Lee Turner of The Boone County Firefighters (source)
“In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel,” Fuchek said. (source)
As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O'Toole saw a steel beam being lifted from deep underground at Ground Zero, which, he says, "was dripping from the molten steel." (source)
...numerous fires were still burning and smoldering. Underground it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6. (source_9-11commission.gov) (2) (3)
Richard Garlock, a structural engineer for LERA said "Going below, it was smoky and really hot... The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running." (source)
Vance Deisingnore, OSHA Officer at WTC, reported the following to Jim McKay, Post-Gazette Staff Writer, on September 11, 2002 "a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the Tower collapsed, its metal so hot that it looked like a vat of molten steel." (source)
Father Edward A. Malloy, on site 40 days after the disaster stated "Firefighters atop a number of ladder trucks were spraying in the areas of greatest smoke. The average temperature beneath the rubble is said to be 1500F so that when steel is brought up it is molten and takes two or three days to cool down." (source_nd.edu)
Ed Pfister, a veteran of three hurricanes and two flood relief efforts, and a member of the elite Disaster Medical Assistance Team, wrote in his diary "deep below ground a portion of the pile was still on fire and boiled with molten material. Sometimes, open flame would erupt as a crane pulled debris out and air rushed in. Fire hoses constantly poured streams of water causing huge billowing steam clouds to rise up over the site into the huge lights above." (source_NIH.gov)
Guy Lounsbury with the 109th Air Wing of the New York Air National Guard wrote "The men who work on this must constantly change their boots as the heat melts them. Two weeks after the attack, one fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers’ remains." (source)
A group of veteran ironworkers eating lunch while staring at the steel skeleton of a new building going up on West Third Street when one commented on "how much easier it was to eat a sandwich in front of steel that was strong and straight and new, not molten and mangled and laden with debris." (source)
Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho of Texas Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue described the scope of the destruction, "Everything had its own look. In the area surrounding what was the two twin towers, there were several buildings still standing that were burned from top to bottom, and some of them were damaged by the collapse. But the two towers — they were 110-story buildings. And there was nothing that you could put your hands on that resembled anything that would tell you this once was two 110-story office buildings. What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into massive amounts of molten steel and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. We dug and we dug and we dug, and we cut and we cut and we cut, and we did not see anything that resembled any type of furniture, any type of personal belongings. We found some pieces of things like a telephone, things like that. I think we found credit cards a few times, and we found a couple of stuffed animals. But you would expect to see, like, a bunch of desks, a bunch of chairs. The only way I can explain it is, if you take a car and put it in one of those machines where they crush it and make it look like a cube, and you can’t recognize what it is, that’s what the whole area looked like. It looked like a massive, molten mess that had been fused together, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A lot of what we were walking on was just molten steel. (source)
The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal and jet fuel. The health hazards are everywhere: the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies. (source)
"In mid-October, in the evening," said Thomas A. Cahill, a retired professor of physics and atmospheric science at the University of California, Davis, "when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire - which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December." (source_acs.org)
Some beams pulled from the wreckage are still red hot more than 7 weeks after the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F. (source)
New York mayor Rudy Giuliani said "They were standing on top of a cauldron. They were standing on top of fires 2,000 degrees that raged for a hundred days." (source)
Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion that would propel nearby objects with deadly force. Special expertise was needed. OSHA called in structural engineers from its national office to assess the situation. They recommended a special handling procedure, including the use of specialized rigging and instruments to reduce the hazards. (source_OSHA.gov)
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/WTC/dangerous_worksite.html
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The "hot spots", where intensely burning debris generated temperatures in excess of 1300 degrees Fahrenheit, posed a significant danger to relief workers. NASA had an instrument that could provide information that would be useful to emergency responders. NASA's Airborne Visible infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) science instrument was capable of providing data that could be used to filter smoke and locate extreme hot spots. (source_erau.edu)
The temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to fire officials (source)
Firefighters and other responders contended with intense heat associated with the super-heated steel for weeks; some were coming back from shifts with the bottoms of their boots melted. (source_gwu.edu)
Two weeks after the attack, the rubble, the Pile, is still 7 stories tall. Below, in the Pit it burns like the gates of hell. It is 1200 degrees, so hot that the steel work lifted by the grapplers comes out soft. I've never seen anything like this". (source)
"The fires are so hot in pockets on the Pile that some of the firefighters change boots 3-4 times a day. Smoke and flame come up from the Pit deep within the Pile when a piece of heavy equipment with a huge grappler pulls out a mass that allows a swish of oxygen inside". (source)
Firemen and hazardous materials experts stated that, six weeks after 9/11, "There are pieces of steel being pulled out [from as far as six stories underground] that are still cherry red" and "the blaze is so 'far beyond a normal fire' that it is nearly impossible to draw conclusions about it based on other fires." (source) (cached_copy)
Ground Zero at the World Trade Center was a search site like few others after a major disaster event. Multiple sources of hazards were everywhere. There were shards of steel piled on steel, a two-million-ton pile of debris, red hot steel beams still being pulled from the earth, crevasses, holes, unstable ground, still burning fires, possible asbestos exposure, and caustic fumes that may have contained mixtures of benzene, methane gas and other chemicals. (source_p1) (source)
"The first indication of "Ground Zero" is the smoke. It's still smoking. Many of the beams are still red hot as they are uncovered, and start new fires as the oxygen reaches them." -Congressman Pete Hoekstra (source)
The pile of debris after 30 days of removal operations was still gigantic, over three stories high, with structural steel projecting 7-10 stories into the air. The steam, dust, noise, steel and myriad activities were larger than anything I have ever seen. Temperatures in the pile were over 1,200 °F. Every time an area was opened, fire started in any buried combustible debris. Water trucks and fire engines were used continually. The high temperature debris and water created steam. (source_army.mil) (cached_copy)
"It was determined that 3 million gallons of water were hosed on site in the fire-fighting efforts between 9/11 and 9/21"... "In addition, there were 2 episodes of rain during the same 10 day period after the attack: on 9/14 and 9/20, totaling 0.9 million gallons of water per Bathtub area. Considering the neighboring area, one can take 1 million gallons from the rain. Therefore, a total of 4 million gallons of water percolated through the debris in the first 10 days and collected at the bottom of the Bathtub." (source_llnl.gov)
2000 gallons of Pyrocool FEF foaming agent were sprayed on the "pile" starting September 28th. (source)
"You couldn't even begin to imagine how much water was pumped in there," said Tom Manley of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, the largest fire department union. "It was like you were creating a giant lake." (source)
"When I am not moving, I notice that the soles of my boots are melting from the heat inside the pile of debris." (source)
"As in a stubborn coal mine fire, the combustion taking place deep below the surface is in many places not a fire at all. Instead, oxygen is charring the surfaces of buried fuels in a slow burn more akin to what is seen in the glowing coals of a raked-over campfire. But the scale of the trade center burning is vast, with thousands of plastic computers, acres of flammable carpet, tons of office furniture and steel and reservoirs of hydraulic oil and other fuels piled upon one another. Steel beams pulled from the debris at times are so hot they are cherry red. Benzene, propylene, styrene and other chemicals generated by the combustion of computers, office products and fuels drift through the air." (source)
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Christopher7
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The cladding was the only large amount of aluminum in the towers.
Wrong. - Outside the perimeter of the building.
Not so
Do you really think all the molten metal the witnesses described was melted car wheels?
Christopher7
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No, all those things are made primarily of steel.
There would be a fair amount of copper but it was pulverized along with everything else an mixed in with hundreds of tons of concrete, drywall, insulation and other materials.
No other metal would be found in large concentrations that could account for the many reports of molten metal.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
A nice collection of second hand accounts, statements since denied by the people to whom the American Free Press attributed them, eyeball-based metallurgical analysis, editorial comment by reporters who weren't there, and logical impossibilities such as molten steel running down channel rails (what were the channel rails made of?) or people walking on molten steel (one up on Jesus there!), interspersed with a few accounts that simply claim that stuff was hot.
The only one that looks at all plausible is Abolhassan Astaneh, who is supposed to have said, "I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center. But look at where that sits in context.
Looks to me like the word "no" might have been omitted by mistake. Otherwise, Michels's next question makes no sense. Wouldn't it be funny if that had happened and the whole truth movement had made a big deal out of a misprint?
Dave
The only one that looks at all plausible is Abolhassan Astaneh, who is supposed to have said, "I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center. But look at where that sits in context.
Looks to me like the word "no" might have been omitted by mistake. Otherwise, Michels's next question makes no sense. Wouldn't it be funny if that had happened and the whole truth movement had made a big deal out of a misprint?
Dave
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BigAl
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Please, cut this list down to first-hand reports from identified people at WTC that are equivilant in substance to "I saw molten metal on the pile." It will be a very short list and based on other attempts, none of them can be confirmed. The WTC quotes I see from this list are second hand or worse.
Coal mine fires and the many known examples of fire-induced collapse of steel structures is irrelevant.
There is no physical evidence for molten steel found in the rubble at WTC that can't be explained by the cleanup operations. If there was, you could point to it.
BigAl
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If the reports of "rivers of molten steel in the pile were accurate, then we would have found them, solidified as the pile was cleared out.
The same can be said for the slag from any thermite that burned in the pile.
Copper actually has a fairly high melting temperature -- much lower than steel, but high enough that it might survive a typical fire.
Other metals, however, are legion. Think about all the solder and aluminum and various clips and gadgets in a desktop computer, and what would happen if it was caught in an office fire. Multiply by approximately 25,000, and that's what you'd have in the Pile, just from computers alone.
Yet people are surprised to see molten metal? We should care that they're surprised??
Other metals, however, are legion. Think about all the solder and aluminum and various clips and gadgets in a desktop computer, and what would happen if it was caught in an office fire. Multiply by approximately 25,000, and that's what you'd have in the Pile, just from computers alone.
Yet people are surprised to see molten metal? We should care that they're surprised??
A W Smith
Philosopher
How much EMT was in the towers?
Or aluminum extrusions used in office cubicles?
Or aluminum mullions used in glass partitions?
Or aluminum extrusions used in office cubicles?
Or aluminum mullions used in glass partitions?
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Agreed. I think copper gets brought up because of plumbing issues, and as a result one would think it would have been there in enormous quantities. As well, much of the wiring MAY have been copper, but I do not recall from my reading if this was the case.
This entire element of the 9/11 CT, owes itself to a few misspoken people who through no fault of their own (who would think that their use of the word steel would be fodder for the nut jobs) misused the word STEEL, when they should have said (unless they performed a chemical analysis) METAL.
TAM
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George 152
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Agreed. I think copper gets brought up because of plumbing issues, and as a result one would think it would have been there in enormous quantities. As well, much of the wiring MAY have been copper, but I do not recall from my reading if this was the case.
Most of the plumbing especially the risers and sewage pipes would have been cast iron.
For the bathrooms the pipes to the taps and the wastes would have been plastic
This entire element of the 9/11 CT, owes itself to a few misspoken people who through no fault of their own (who would think that their use of the word steel would be fodder for the nut jobs) misused the word STEEL, when they should have said (unless they performed a chemical analysis) METAL.
TAM
The kook claim is that 'there were rivers of molten steel weeks after 9/11'
There just wasn't an energy source to melt steel let alone keep the steel molten for more than a few minutes.
Sunstealer
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I've been trying to get them to do some calculations but they aren't forth coming.
C7's claim of pulling a solid piece of rebar out of a liquid and then claiming that the resultant liquid that drips from the rebar must be steel is akin to getting a piece of wood, putting it in a tin of paint and then when pulling it out claiming that the wooden stirrer (all men have got one of these in their garage with layers and layers of paint on) is made of paint.
If a piece of rebar was hot enough to have one end melted/placed in liquid steel then I'd love to meet the guy who pulled it out and find out what he was wearing to protect himself from the heat. You only have to see what foundry workers wear when working with liquid iron, which is very dangerous, to see that someone would have to be very foolish indeed to get close to molten steel without specialist protection. I've seen numerous pictures of "clear up" workers and the only ones that have minimal protection from that sort of heat are the people cutting columns/beams etc with lances.
Do you even read the crap you post? Robertson never said this. You are posting hearsay from someone talking about Robertson talking. Robertson never said this and later asked people to prove their silly statements of melted steel. You are full of junk and delusion on 911. Pure junk.
Good job spewing hearsay. What next will you use to support your delusions on 911.
Next time do not post the source, it refutes your words; you debunk yourself.
Robertson never saw rivers of steel flowing, why do you post hearsay? Robertson knows the WTC towers fell due to impact and fire; he designed them.
911Truth not the designers of the WTC towers spew delusions. Why do you repeat failed ideas?
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Christopher7
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Dear Dave,
The following list of reasons to deny and ignore all the statements is just proof that you will not accept any evidence that destroys the Official Conspiracy Theory.
When there is this much collaborating testimony and a photograph that is consistent with that testimony, a reasonable person will accept that this is strong evidence or even proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Only a real investigation where these people testify could make it more certain.
You are calling them liars?
Are you calling them liars?
You then proceed to take the comment out of context and intentionally misinterpret it.
Here is the entire quote:
[FONT="]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html[/FONT]
The following list of reasons to deny and ignore all the statements is just proof that you will not accept any evidence that destroys the Official Conspiracy Theory.
When there is this much collaborating testimony and a photograph that is consistent with that testimony, a reasonable person will accept that this is strong evidence or even proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Only a real investigation where these people testify could make it more certain.
That only matters in a court of law.
You are calling them liars?
Denied? I believe someone said "I don't remember saying that.". Mark Loizeaux clarified and extended what he had said.
Get serious. You don't have to be a metallurgist to know molten metal when you see it and when someone sees molten metal dripping from a steel beam, that's a positive identification.
Reporters report what they hear from witnesses.
Are you calling them liars?
Impossible?
Steel does not melt instantly. Molten steel can run down the channel of a steel I beam.
Overstatement perhaps? Strawman?
But look at where that sits in context.? ? ?
You then proceed to take the comment out of context and intentionally misinterpret it.
Here is the entire quote:
He is referring to the girders in the bridge when he says "So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders.". He then compares these girders to the girders he saw melting at the WTC.
[FONT="]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html[/FONT]
Christopher7
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There were hundreds of miles of copper wire in that building. Do you see any quantity or concentrations in any of the photos?
Christopher7
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Copper wire and pipe made up a small percentage of the total debris and were dispersed throughout the debris pile.
These metals were a tiny fraction of the total debris.
Do the math. You've got 5 inches of concrete, drywall, furniture, carpet etc. Compare that with the amount of solder and other metals in computers and whatnot on one floor.
There were no other metals that would be found in concentration in the WTC.
You just can't deal with the evidence of molten steel so you try to come up with alternate explanations rather than accept the obvious one.
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