Israeli Army Hate Training!!

[IDB87]

Nonsense. They targeted the fighters and leaders of the groups that were attacking them, AND the civilians.

Should the IDF send in ground forces to physically detain the Hamas leaders and avoid confrontation at all costs?

What is the alternative to precision bombing?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Should the IDF send in ground forces to physically detain the Hamas leaders and avoid confrontation at all costs?

What is the alternative to precision bombing?

Precision Bombing? Well it precisely targets civilians doesn't it.

Hamas fires it's non-precision old rockets in the general direction of civilians and occasionally hits some. Most land in fields

Israel uses drone with modern precision guided weapons that can hit a dime from hundreds of feet in the air. It gets it's target every time. Like the poor civilians who were murdered as they loaded gas cylinders on the back of a pickup truck or the precision Israel munition that precisely targeted the bedroom of a bunch teenage girls studying for their school exams. it blew the head clean off of two of the. The newsreel showed the bits of brain splattered ion the wall.

Or what about the precision bombing of the Palestinian refugee camp in the Lebanon in 2006 ?

You Zionist Apologists can deny it as much as you like but the reality on the ground shows the truth.

Considering the precision of Israel's modern military machinery in order to kill as many civilians as it does it either has to be the worst trained force in the history of the world or it's doing it deliberately.

Looking at the footage the IDF has released itself it looks pretty trained and pretty accurate to me. Therefore the conclusion is it's killing civilians deliberately.

Terrorism. Pure an Simple. You can deny it all you want. You can claim black is white all you want. YOU make yourselves look disingenuous. The World isn't stupid.

 

[IDB87]

Precision Bombing?

As opposed to carpet/indiscriminate bombing...

Anyways, you avoided the question.

What is the alternative to bombing these Hamas targets?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

As opposed to carpet/indiscriminate bombing...

... which Israel is also complicit in. Lebanese children are still to this day being killed and maimed by the unexploded cluster bomblets that litter Southern Lebanon.

And it's worth noting that the millions of cluster bomblets were dropped in the last 48 hours of the offensive AFTER the ceasefire time and date was finally agreed after a delay tactic by Rice and Blair.

This is on top of the mass slaughter of the Palestinians refugees by Israel.

Anyways, you avoided the question.

What is the alternative to bombing these Hamas targets?

Not bombing them. Israel claims Hamas are using civilians as hostages but then it fires anyway. Therefore that's proof they are deliberately targeting civilians in itself. And that's without the civilian targets where there's no evidence of Hamas being there.

The murderous attack on Gaza will not stop the Hamas rockets. Israel knew that before it even started. Any fool knows that the Israeli attack will only step up the Palestinian's resolve to fight back. Israel may commit atrocities but it isn't stupid.

In fact Israel is certainly more intelligent than most of the ridiculous denial arguments used on this forum that attempt to defend it.

All those civilians in Gaza have died for nothing. Nothing has been solved. No one ever expected it to, especially Israel itself. The only people that have won are those who want more Palestinians killed and those who support them

 

[Carnivore]

... which Israel is also complicit in. Lebanese children are still to this day being killed and maimed by the unexploded cluster bomblets that litter Southern Lebanon.

And it's worth noting that the millions of cluster bomblets were dropped in the last 48 hours of the offensive AFTER the ceasefire time and date was finally agreed after a delay tactic by Rice and Blair.

This is on top of the mass slaughter of the Palestinians refugees by Israel.





Not bombing them. Israel claims Hamas are using civilians as hostages but then it fires anyway. Therefore that's proof they are deliberately targeting civilians in itself. And that's without the civilian targets where there's no evidence of Hamas being there.

The murderous attack on Gaza will not stop the Hamas rockets. Israel knew that before it even started. Any fool knows that the Israeli attack will only step up the Palestinian's resolve to fight back. Israel may commit atrocities but it isn't stupid.

In fact Israel is certainly more intelligent than most of the ridiculous denial arguments used on this forum that attempt to defend it.

All those civilians in Gaza have died for nothing. Nothing has been solved. No one ever expected it to, especially Israel itself. The only people that have won are those who want more Palestinians killed and those who support them

If I understand you correctly:

1) Israel's incursions into Gaza have NOTHING WHATEVER to do with Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, but are merely a convenient excuse for premeditated Israeli aggression.

2) Israel does not want to prevent rocket attacks on Israel. Israel wants to strengthen Palestinian resistance to Israel, to prolong the conflict.

3) The purpose of Israel's attacks on Hamas rocket and mortar launch positions is to kill Palestinian civilians. The more the better. The only reason they go after Hamas is to disguise their true goal - dead civilians.

4)The rocket attacks by Hamas on Israel - which have as their publicly avowed purpose to kill as many civilians as possible, are not worth worrying about.

5) Israel should not be responding in any military fashion to the military attacks on their civilians.

Do I have that right?


If so may I respectfully request that you answer IDB87's question?

What exactly, should Israel be doing about Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians, here and now in 2009.

 

[Carnivore]

Parky did you ever rape a kitten? That was a low class question.

Is it still bestiality if the kitten is dead?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Not bombing them. Israel claims Hamas are using civilians as hostages but then it fires anyway. f.

No, Israel is RIGHT that they use civilians as cover. They are, in fact, civilians themselves. One civilian firing out of another group of civilians is still a civilian.

How would you advocate stopping the attacks TFT?

I'm not asking what Israel will or will not do, I am asking YOU what YOU would do to stop the attacks and why you think it would be successful.

 

[IDB87]

TFT - What is the alternative to bombing these Hamas targets?

Three people have asked you now what Israel should do instead of bombing these targets. If you agree that Hamas should not get away with these rocket attacks, how should Israel go after them?

Please stop dodging the question.

 

[gdnp]

Nonsense. They targeted the fighters and leaders of the groups that were attacking them, AND the civilians.

Damn, those Israelis need more training. All those sophisticated weapons, 1.5 million civilians with nowhere to escape, and yet over 2 weeks of Israeli targeting they were only able to kill 600? Israeli soldiers must have pretty crappy aim.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Israeli Army Hate Training!!

No, Israeli Army Love Training. They know good training makes for less dead in combat.

Trains they does, and they loves it, Precious.

DR

(Tim, I suggest you cease and desist commenting on matters military. You are not well versed.)

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

TFT - What is the alternative to bombing these Hamas targets?

Three people have asked you now what Israel should do instead of bombing these targets. If you agree that Hamas should not get away with these rocket attacks, how should Israel go after them?

Please stop dodging the question.

I'm not dodging the question. I've already told you. They should not attack when their are civilians in the sights. they should not bomb/shell civilians.

Israel is being attacked because of it's 60 year agenda of persecution of the Palestinians. Although I don't condone attacks on Israeli civilians, because contrary to the silly accusations of some of the children in this forum my care is for the ordinary people whether they be Palestinians or Israelis. I don't hold ordinary Israelis responsible for the atrocities committed by it's government/security services.

there's an overlap of questions here so I'll answer the few of you in go go if I can ....

No, Israel is RIGHT that they use civilians as cover. They are, in fact, civilians themselves. One civilian firing out of another group of civilians is still a civilian.

How would you advocate stopping the attacks TFT?

I'm not asking what Israel will or will not do, I am asking YOU what YOU would do to stop the attacks and why you think it would be successful

What would I do?

Well that's a fair question. The problem with that is I'm NOT the Zionist Movement with an agenda to take all of Palestine. I don't hold the same mindset.

To be honest if I was the 'Zionist agenda' I would do exactly what Israel is doing now. i.e indulge in a long term agenda to harass and persecute the Palestinians with a hope that eventually they would crumble and leave Palestine so that I, as a Zionist militant could take the lot for my brethren. I would antagonise them to retaliate so I could claim I was a victim and thus have a legitimate right to attack them in return.

As Tim Foil Timothy with a care for human beings and as someone who put peace over any selfish land grab I would STOP persecuting the Palestinians. I would rip down the concrete walls, stop blockading the Gazan borders, remove the Jewish settlements, remove the checkpoints, remove the apartheid and most of all treat the Palestinians with both respect and on an equal footing. I would essentially stop Israel being a racist state and start treating human beings as human beings regardless of their race.

I would give both Jews and Arabs an EQUAL footing in the region. I would throw the two state solution in the trash where it belongs. It's total BS. It's simply divisive. Jews can have a homeland in these lands without driving Arabs out. Both can live side by side.

The agenda for a Jewish homeland isn't the problem. Jews deserve a homeland and I fully support that. The problem is with the selfish racist Zionists who want a Jews only nation and are prepared to murder people in order to achieve that.

The Zionist Agenda is the cause of all this crap. The longer some of you people keep insisting on equating Anti-Zionism with Anti-semitism the longer this divisive cancer will continue to infect the Middle East

 

[Carnivore]

Thank you for that clear and honest answer.

However, I don't see how that would stop the Hamas attacks on civilians in the short term. Certainly it would be wonderful if the two sides would back off from military confrontation, but regardless of the root causes of the conflict (and I hope you will agree that people can honestly hold differing opinions on that score), for Israel to simply give up military action would not end the violence here and now, in 2009.

Suppose Israel followed all the policies you advocate. Would that make Hamas disappear, or erase the generations of hate? I am morally certain it would not, in fact I believe it would be interpreted by Hamas and by a broad base of Palestinians as proof of Hamas' military victory and inspire them to deliver the "final blow" to the "Zionist oppressors."

Therefore, my next question is: Supposing Israel followed all the policies you suggest but that attacks on civilians continue and (in the absence of any Israeli effort to counter them), become more numerous and more effective. In that circumstance, how long should Israel wait for Hamas to give peace a chance and/or how many murdered civilians should Israel accept while waiting for the anti Israel terrorists to change their minds about Israel?

 

[gdnp]

I'm not dodging the question. I've already told you. They should not attack when their are civilians in the sights. they should not bomb/shell civilians.

It sounds nice as a principle, but if Israel or any other country agreed to this policy, then all terrorists would need to do to guarantee their safety would be to remain in the presence of civilians. It would validate Hamas policy of using civilians as human shields in violation of the rules of war.

Countries must sometimes make the calculation that although killing a particular leader will cause civilian deaths, that the reduction in civilian deaths in the future justifies the cost.

 

[Skeptic]

TFT - What is the alternative to bombing these Hamas targets?

Three people have asked you now what Israel should do instead of bombing these targets. If you agree that Hamas should not get away with these rocket attacks, how should Israel go after them?

Surrender, I suppose.

 

[Stout]

It sounds nice as a principle, but if Israel or any other country agreed to this policy, then all terrorists would need to do to guarantee their safety would be to remain in the presence of civilians. It would validate Hamas policy of using civilians as human shields in violation of the rules of war.

Countries must sometimes make the calculation that although killing a particular leader will cause civilian deaths, that the reduction in civilian deaths in the future justifies the cost.

Well said.

It's an easy position to take, the one of seizing moral high ground from the comfortable position of your armchair in a country far removed from the reality on the ground in the middle east. What's lacking though is the consideration that Hamas is the government of Gaza which through their charter has declared war on Israel and the events on the ground are a result of that declaration of war.

Sure, we can go on about "innocent civilians" and in the propaganda war that this latest conflict clearly is, absolving Hamas from any responsibility for their tactics leading to civilian deaths is rather short sited.

Why would Israel even need to bother teaching hate ? They already have legions of young people who're automatically pissed off about being forced to serve in the military and those young people are more than capable of assessing just whose "responsible" for their being there in the first place.

Hamas, OTOH, seems to get a free ride for their teaching of hate and i fail to see why i should hold Israel to a different standard when it comes to attitudes toward "the other"

 

[Skeptic]

Hamas, OTOH, seems to get a free ride for their teaching of hate and i fail to see why i should hold Israel to a different standard when it comes to attitudes toward "the other"

There are three moral standards used in the world: one, the strictest, for Israel, one, an average one, for most of the rest of the world, and one, the most lenient, for Arabs and/or Muslims.

The reason Israel is held to a different standard, higher than the rest of the world, is that it is the Jewish nation. We have here a mixture of "blame Israel first" antisemitism, by some people, and "after all the Jews suffered, they must be more moral than everybody else" well-meaning, but misguided, demand for higher moral standards.

The reason Hamas is held to a different, lower, standard than the rest of the world, is that they are Muslims (in general) and Arabs (in particular). Here, we have a mixture of "well, what can you expect from such savages? No point making a fuss about it" outright racism, and "well, the poor dears suffered colonialism, so they have no choice but to act savagely..." well meaning, but misguided, demand for lower moral standards.

This is unfair to the Jews, as it holds them to a higher moral standard that cannot possibly be met, and then blames them for it. But it is downight degrading and racist towards the Arab-Muslims, since they are presumed to be not fully human, not creatures who could be expected to act in a civilized or non-violent manner, it's only a disagreement about whether they are such by nature, or due to colonialism.

P.S

If the Arab-Muslims really couldn't act differently, no choice remains but to kill them or isolate them all from the rest of the world, for the same reason we isolate and even kill violent animals. The violent animal might have very good reason, due to mistreatment, to be violent; but since it cannot act differently, the world must be protected from it.

 

[IDB87]

They should not attack when their are civilians in the sights. they should not bomb/shell civilians.

And instead should do WHAT? Regardless of the 'Zionist plot', what should Israel do when Hamas, Fatah, AAMB, or any such group launches rockets into its' territory? You have condemned the rockets, and agreed that Israel should defend itself. HOW should it defend itself in the immediate aftermath of a rocket attack?

 

[Thunder]

There will clearly never be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians until both sides decide to love their own people more then they hate the other.

The fact that there are still walls and barbed wiring separating Protestants from Catholics in modern, democratic Great Britain, does not say much for when there might be peace in the Middle East.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

It sounds nice as a principle, but if Israel or any other country agreed to this policy, then all terrorists would need to do to guarantee their safety would be to remain in the presence of civilians. It would validate Hamas policy of using civilians as human shields in violation of the rules of war.

Countries must sometimes make the calculation that although killing a particular leader will cause civilian deaths, that the reduction in civilian deaths in the future justifies the cost.

It worked in Northern Ireland. The British didn't bomb Northern Ireland even though the terrorists had caused many civilian deaths with bombings in both Northern Ireland and the British mainland.

And to note, the carnage in Northern Ireland lasted half the time it's lated in Palestine.

The big difference is that the British didn't have an agenda to take over land

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

And instead should do WHAT? Regardless of the 'Zionist plot', what should Israel do when Hamas, Fatah, AAMB, or any such group launches rockets into its' territory? You have condemned the rockets, and agreed that Israel should defend itself. HOW should it defend itself in the immediate aftermath of a rocket attack?

How should the Palestinians defend themselves against the persecution dealt out by Israel?