octuplets

[Alt+F4]

What do you base your diagnosis of mental illness on?

I was reminded of Jeffrey Dhamer and Andrea Yates, both determined to not be mentally ill due to the fact that they understood what they were doing was wrong.

The woman in question here does not understand that what she has done is wrong. And yes, I know it's my personal opinion that having 14 kids you can't support is wrong.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

I don't think it's obvious at all. She seems to be woefully ignorant of where the money comes to pay for the care and feeding of her kids, and she certainly has spectacularly poor judgment. What do you base your diagnosis of mental illness on?

FWIW, she seems quite narcissistic - everything is about what she wants, not about what is best for her children. But there are lots of narcissistic people in the world; I don't think that necessarily qualifies as being mentally ill.

IMO, it's not so much her lack of understanding of where the money is coming from but rather the basis for her desire to have so many children. She claims that she did not have that much love in her childhood and she is trying to compensate by having a lot of children. I think that there is something not quite right in the land of Suleman.

 

[BPSCG]

The woman in question here does not understand that what she has done is wrong.

You understand that people can be really stupid without being mentally ill, don't you?

 

[slingblade]

Beeps, I've noticed that lots of people (no one in particular, mind you) seem to operate under the premise that "doesn't think at all like I think" = "mentally ill."

 

[BPSCG]

IMO, it's not so much her lack of understanding of where the money is coming from but rather the basis for her desire to have so many children. She claims that she did not have that much love in here childhood and she is trying to compensate by having a lot of children. I think that there is something not quite right in the land of Suleman.

I love it when people who are not psychiatrists diagnose mental illness in people whom they've never met.

This is a skeptics' forum. Please provide a diagnosis of her mental illness - the actual name of the illness. Then please list the symptoms that she displays that correspond with your diagnosis and which rule out any other possible diagnosis.

 

[BPSCG]

Beeps, I've noticed that lots of people (no one in particular, mind you) seem to operate under the premise that "doesn't think at all like I think" = "mentally ill."

Good thing that parenthetical phrase is there, else I'd think you were talking about me...

 

[Skeptic Guy]

I love it when people who are not psychiatrists diagnose mental illness in people whom they've never met.

This is a skeptics' forum. Please provide a diagnosis of her mental illness - the actual name of the illness. Then please list the symptoms that she displays that correspond with your diagnosis and which rule out any other possible diagnosis.

And I love it when people go to such great pains to immediately jump all over others to demonstrate that their skeptical members are...bigger... than everyone else's.

Is she mentally ill? I don't know for sure, but the facts argue that she could be. And that opinion is being considered by others, including psychiatrists.

From: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/31/nadya-suleman-octuplets-m_n_162756.html

Diane G. Sanford, a psychologist and author specializing in women's reproductive mental health, said while she doesn't know much about Nadya Suleman's background, women that have obsessive-compulsive disorder can become fixated on different obsessions.

"Her obsession centers around children, having children and being a mother," she said. "To what degree are her esteem and identity based on being a mom, and why has this from a young age been such a preoccupation of hers?"

Also, it seems that she has been battling depression for some years.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02072009/news/nationalnews/loony_octomom_153939.htm?&page=0

Is she just stupid? Maybe, but that would only be an opinion, too. But I think the vast majority of rational people in the world would argue that her decision to have 14-children, put her parents in the poor house doing so, and consider her need to have many babies more important than her children...well, not normal. I'm leaning toward obsessive-compulsive...mental illness.

 

[Ladewig]

She's obviously mentally ill, what I'm curious about is the doctor who performed the IVF. Did he know about the first six kids? Why did he implant so many embroys? Where did she get the money for this?

In the latest round of interviews, she claims that the doctor implanted 6 embryos and two of them turned into twins. She also claims that her other children were each the result of six implanted embryos in which only one became viable. Her position is that she neither asked for nor wanted octuplets, but when it became clear that she would get octuplets, she decided to keep them all.

 

[Alt+F4]

She also claims that her other children were each the result of six implanted embryos in which only one became viable.

Forgive me in advance in case I'm reading this wrong but was she saying that in each of the first six pregnancies six embryos each were implanted, giving her a now total of 44 embroys (36 from the first six pregencies and 8 for the most recent)?

 

[Ladewig]

Forgive me in advance in case I'm reading this wrong but was she saying that in each of the first six pregnancies six embryos each were implanted, giving her a now total of 44 embroys (36 from the first six pregencies and 8 for the most recent)?

I was wrong. The actual number is 36. link

The ASRM said women under 35 should be implanted with no more than two embryos at a time but Dr. Michael M. Kamrava of the West Coast IVF Clinic in Beverly Hills implanted six embryos on Nadya Suleman, 33, in each of her six pregnancies. Suleman bore four babies in single births, a set of twins and octuplets from the in-vitro fertilization (IVF) procedures. It said Kamrava's action subjected Suleman to a risky pregnancy.

 

[slingblade]

Good thing that parenthetical phrase is there, else I'd think you were talking about me...

Nope, I was agreeing with you that a person can do some strange, not-so-bright things, but not necessarily have a mental illness or disorder.

 

[gumboot]

Is this for real?

LOS ANGELES - The mother of the woman who used a fertility doctor to give birth to octuplets, despite already having six young children, called her daughter's actions "unconscionable" in an interview posted online.

Angela Suleman is caring for the six older children while her daughter is hospitalized after giving birth Jan. 26 to the octuplets.

"She already has six beautiful children, why would she do this?" Angela Suleman said in the videotaped interview with celebrity news website RadarOnline.com. "I'm struggling to look after her six. We had to put in bunk beds, feed them in shifts and there's children's clothing piled all over the house."

...

Angela Suleman said Nadya's boyfriend was the biological father of all 14 children, but that she refused to marry him.

"He was in love with her and wanted to marry her," she said. "But Nadya wanted to have children on her own.

NZ Herald

 

[Arus808]

Is this for real?

yes it is real. the dateline interview was on tonight and it continues to show how deluded she is.

and her IVF doctor was stupid as well. 2-3 embryos are the normally done at one time. HE violated all standards by established medical procedures by implanting 6 embryos.

She said tha tshe worked to save up for the implanting of 36 embryos, totalling nearly $100,000 . Tell me how she was able to do this, when she went on disablity thereby having NO income?

 

[BPSCG]

Nope, I was agreeing with you that a person can do some strange, not-so-bright things, but not necessarily have a mental illness or disorder.

Happy Birthday, slingblade!

 

[Nursefoxfire]

It's funny (funny odd, not funny haha) how this seems to be the first time I've ever seen an event happen where nearly everyone, universally, is on the same side.

I've yet to read or watch anyone defending her (except her hired shill publicist). The closest anyone comes is probably the OP in this thread where LibraryLady waffles between the woman's right to do what she wants with her body vs. bringing in state and federal money to pay for that right. (p.s. not bashing you, LL, I feel the same way you do/did when you wrote that ).

 

[TragicMonkey]

It's funny (funny odd, not funny haha) how this seems to be the first time I've ever seen an event happen where nearly everyone, universally, is on the same side.

I've yet to read or watch anyone defending her (except her hired shill publicist). The closest anyone comes is probably the OP in this thread where LibraryLady waffles between the woman's right to do what she wants with her body vs. bringing in state and federal money to pay for that right. (p.s. not bashing you, LL, I feel the same way you do/did when you wrote that ).

Well, in that case, I feel the lady has every right to pour busloads of children out of her unspeakables. Let her fruitful abyss pour forth unto the world! Let her field soccer team after soccer team, whole grades of kids at school, multiple Boy and Girl Scout troops, all from her own divine cloning factory! The earth is empty, empty! It screams for more population. Do you know how few people live on all those islands in the Hudson Bay? One of them is twice the size of Britain, and has like a dozen people on it! Our duty to humanity, and to God, is to "be fruitful and multiply". This lady is attempting, through sheer grit, determination, stolen sperm, and hundreds of thousands of dollars (possibly millions) of other people's money, to fulfill this sacred duty. Far from decrying her, we should honor her! Respect her sacrifice! Create a memorial to stand for all time as a monument to her dedication!

Yes, I'm saying we should have her uterus bronzed.

 

[LibraryLady]

It's funny (funny odd, not funny haha) how this seems to be the first time I've ever seen an event happen where nearly everyone, universally, is on the same side.

I've yet to read or watch anyone defending her (except her hired shill publicist). The closest anyone comes is probably the OP in this thread where LibraryLady waffles between the woman's right to do what she wants with her body vs. bringing in state and federal money to pay for that right. (p.s. not bashing you, LL, I feel the same way you do/did when you wrote that ).

I did waffle, it's such a strange story. And now I believe that this story cannot be used to extrapolate any opinions, because it is a unique situation. I'm in the camp of believing this woman has some serious emotional issues, but I don't think they mitigate what has happened here. And while I'm concerned about the multi-million bill that this has and will continue to generate, what I'm really concerned about is that group of children, some of whom do and will need special care and individual attention that I'm not sure they will get under these circumstance.

And I also believe that the real villain of the piece is the doctor who apparently has some serious ethical issues.

The children's mother runs a close second.

 

[Alt+F4]

And I also believe that the real villain of the piece is the doctor who apparently has some serious ethical issues.

I agree and wonder why doctors get the luxury of having "ethical issues."

In most (all?) states a bartender is legally required to cut off a drinker if, in their opinion, that drinker seems intoxicated. Why can't doctors be required by law to provide such reasonable care? This woman was a danger to herself and the general public - much like a drunk driver.

 

[Nursefoxfire]

Well, in that case, I feel the lady has every right to pour busloads of children out of her unspeakables. Let her fruitful abyss pour forth unto the world! Let her field soccer team after soccer team, whole grades of kids at school, multiple Boy and Girl Scout troops, all from her own divine cloning factory! The earth is empty, empty! It screams for more population. Do you know how few people live on all those islands in the Hudson Bay? One of them is twice the size of Britain, and has like a dozen people on it! Our duty to humanity, and to God, is to "be fruitful and multiply". This lady is attempting, through sheer grit, determination, stolen sperm, and hundreds of thousands of dollars (possibly millions) of other people's money, to fulfill this sacred duty. Far from decrying her, we should honor her! Respect her sacrifice! Create a memorial to stand for all time as a monument to her dedication!

Yes, I'm saying we should have her uterus bronzed.

Nice!

Not to detract from your delightful post, but I believe the sperm was donated when she wanted to try for her first baby. She just used legalese to make sure she had all the rights to use the leftover sperm (to fertilize more of her eggs), and made sure he had NO rights. In her Frontline interview I thought it was pretty clear that the donor was horrified that he'd just sired a rugby team, but that he had no say in the matter.

And I liked how she tried to bash him for not wanting to "be part of the kids' lives", and was hoping someday he'd change his mind.

Uh, what? Didn't you just get through telling us how you made sure he had no claim over the sperm or the viable issue that resulted? And didn't you also say that he was horrified when you had octuplets (implying that you didn't bother to consult with him before implanting the remainder of the frozen embryos)? What guy would ever feel welcome to be a part of that family, after that?

 

[Nursefoxfire]

I did waffle, it's such a strange story. And now I believe that this story cannot be used to extrapolate any opinions, because it is a unique situation. I'm in the camp of believing this woman has some serious emotional issues, but I don't think they mitigate what has happened here. And while I'm concerned about the multi-million bill that this has and will continue to generate, what I'm really concerned about is that group of children, some of whom do and will need special care and individual attention that I'm not sure they will get under these circumstance.

And I also believe that the real villain of the piece is the doctor who apparently has some serious ethical issues.

The children's mother runs a close second.

I totally agree. And you know, it's not even about the money for me. I posted about this elsewhere the other day: My brother is Mormon and has a huge family. He's also got a growing legal firm, a huge house, a devoted Mormon wife, the works. The problem isn't money, they built a 9,000 sq ft home, no kid wants for anything.

The problem is that with 9 children, someone's going to suffer from lack of time. The older kids are raising the younger ones, there are behavioral issues as some of the kids act out (sometimes violently) to garner some precious attention from their parents. The oldest daughter ran away, she broke from the pressure.

You can be Angelina Jolie, with all of her money, staff, everything. But I almost guarantee that you can't be as good a parent with 6, or 10 or 14 kids, as you could have with less. It hurts the children. There's no getting around that. The parents can be the most loving parents in the world, but at the end of the day every kid needs quality time with his mom and dad.

If you take a 24 hr day and remove the recommended 8 hours for sleeping, plus another 8 hours for work, those remaining 8 hours gives you roughly 34 minutes per child (if you have 14 of them). Half an hour a day is not going to be enough for those kids. One is autistic, another is showing signs of it, another has learning disabilities, another is ADHD. And who knows what problems the octuplets will have.

I have ONE child and I cannot imagine splitting my time with him between 13 others. I don't have enough time with him as it is!

It sickens me. Her whole interview was all about me, me, me.