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Resolution of Transporter Problem

Brain-independent long-term memory and "spread out" consciousness-- Hmm...

By "more spread out", are you suggesting that consciousness permeates the universe and that emergent properties that fall prey to an illusory sense of "I" are but fleeting points of perspective in an uberconsciousness? Or am I way out there in left field again? If I'm not, can you provide any reason for someone to consider that this might be the case?

Hi gentlehorse,

I certainly don't know definitively "how it is" and try not to claim to (!). By "more spread out" I meant only that we can't find a "stream of consciousness" located in the brain. We know the brain is very strongly implicated in creating conscious experience, but we don't have enough knowledge to say much more than this imo.

What I certainly perceive as issues here are...

* our inability to precisely locate conscious experience within the brain. Currently it's clear that certain areas are associated with certain aspects but that's it;
* the fact that all we do experience and make postulations from are only aspects of consciousness anyway;
* the "hard problem" and related issues with Self; There are vague models which allow us to get around aspects of the "hard problem" but we haven't figured it to a neuronal level yet asaik.
* the increasingly accepted fact that however it is, it sure can't be like it seems. As Dennett notes...if your theory of consciousness isn't counter-intuitive, then it's just plain wrong.

Nick
 
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What I certainly perceive as issues here are...

* our inability to precisely locate conscious experience within the brain. Currently it's clear that certain areas are associated with certain aspects but that's it;
Our inability to precisely locate conscious experience within the brain is only a problem if you assume that conscious experience is precisely located within the brain. Which would be contrary to the actual evidence.

* the fact that all we do experience and make postulations from are only aspects of consciousness anyway;
... And? Where's the problem?

* the "hard problem" and related issues with Self;
There is no "hard problem". It's a bedtime story for baby philosophers.

There are vague models which allow us to get around aspects of the "hard problem" but we haven't figured it to a neuronal level yet asaik.
What is there to "get around"?

* the increasingly accepted fact that however it is, it sure can't be like it seems.
Not only do we already know that, we've experimentally proven it.

As Dennett notes...if your theory of consciousness isn't counter-intuitive, then it's just plain wrong.
If your intuition can't adapt to new data, then it's not much bleedin' good, is it?
 
Seeing. Hearing. Smelling. Tasting. Touching. Emoting.
Insofar as they are aspects of consciousness, all of them are thinking.

You want more?
No, one will do.

I have actually downloaded it and made a start though I've been away for a month so I've not got far yet. I will pursue it for sure though I am skeptical that it will fulfil the claims you make for it. I'm expecting that it will show how certain areas of the brain relate to aspects of conscious experience. I'm also expecting that it won't deal with the "hard problem" or with selfhood, though for sure I could be wrong.
It certainly deals with selfhood.

This is just my expectation and I look forward to being pleasantly surprised.
Serious question: Why do you think the so-called "hard problem" is even coherent?
 
No, there isn't, and I never specified such a thing. How could I, being a materialist?
Hey, don't look at me! It's your teleporter!

All information transfer relies on direct, continuous interactions between something physical. At a fundamental level there is no such thing as discontinuity.
Yes.

Until you introduced this teleporter thingy.
 
Seeing. Hearing. Smelling. Tasting. Touching. Emoting.

You want more?

We'd like even one.

EVERY act of sensory processing involves thinking, Nick. EVERY act of sensation directly involves brain processes.

So you fail on that point.
 
Hey, don't look at me! It's your teleporter!


Yes.

Until you introduced this teleporter thingy.

Ugh... I never said it was non-physical. It would have to rely on some physical process for transfer (and everything else). If it sounded otherwise, my mistake.

There, does that make it clear that there is no discontinuity?
 
God, here we go again...


Nick, do you realize that when you start down this "no self" path it dilutes any other arguments simply because everyone else jumps in with their opinion and any other issues get lost in the flood?

I mean, you had a chance to concentrate on some very fundamental issues -- a chance to soundly show some people are flat out wrong -- and instead you had to throw in your old dead horse because apparently its carcass isn't stomped enough.
 
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zaayrdragon said:
Nick, here's a series of situations for you to consider:

OK

a) Man walks up with a gun and intends to shoot you in the head, no explanation offered. Do you defend yourself?

Yes.

Fair enough.

b) Man walks up with a gun and intends to shoot you in the head. He explains you have a perfect duplicate nearby, and only one of you can be legally allowed to exist at a time. Do you defend yourself?

Yes, like I'm just going to believe him. I mean, it's hardly the sort of thing that happens every day.

What if it is the sort of thing that happens every day? What if this is a common event, and has been for two or three decades?

c) Man walks up with an instantaneous disintegrator ray, and intends to vaporize you, no explanation offered. Do you defend yourself?

Yes.

d) Man walks up with an instantaneous disintegrator ray, and intends to vaporize you. He explains you have a perfect duplicate nearby, and only one of you can be legally allowed to exist at a time. Do you defend yourself?

Yes.

And if this has been happening for decades? What then?

e) You walk into a booth marked 'transporter'. In front of you is a red button marked 'Start'. Around you are serrated blades, blender-style, that are clearly set to start grinding the moment you push the button. Death is likely to be rather messy and painful. Do you push the button?
No.

Even if there's been twenty or thirty years of 'successful transportation' (as well as a successful meat-patty business next door)?

f) You walk into a booth marked 'transporter'. Around you are several ballistic weapon muzzles, tracking your head and heart. In front of you is a red button marked 'Start', which is clearly going to cause the weapons to fire at you. Do you push the button?
No.

Again, what if there's been several decades of successful 'transportation' via this method?

g) You walk into a booth marked 'transporter'. Half of a pamphlet is in front of you, on a shelf next to the 'Start' button, which details how advanced laser scanning apparati will dissect you, atom by atom, over the course of 0.03 seconds, totally vaporising your body. Do you push the button?

No

OK, but what if this is Blackmore's Universe, and these transporters have been around for twenty or thirty years?

h) You walk into a booth marked 'transporter'. There is a pamphlet in front of you, on a shelf next to the 'Start' button, which details how advanced laser scanning apparati will dissect you, atom by atom, over the course of 0.03 seconds, totally vaporising your body; while on Mars a similar apparatus assembles a perfect duplicate of you atom by atom from stock matter, creating a perfect duplicate and programming that duplicate with all your consciousness. Do you push the button?

No.<<snip>>I'd need a bit more than a pamphlet. How about at least a decade of successful transmissions and no recorded probs. Note that in Blackmore's version of the thought experiment it's stated that the machinery cannot fail and this cannot be an issue. In reality I would need more than a pamphlet.

Nick

What difference would a decade of 'successful transmissions' have to do with whether or not you'd walk into a meat-grinder transporter, or allow the government's 'originality adjuster' to shoot you in the head and allow the duplicate to live on?

Your answers may have been predicated upon a lack of 'decades of evidence' as to their processes' supposed efficacy, but to me they reveal that there is a serious disconnect within your own thinking about this process. Case H is absolutely the same as Blackmore's experiment, except that I failed, in each case, to say that these things have been happening all the time; and, aside from minor, unimportant issues like 'pain' and 'agony', cases F-H are all identical in most significant ways. After all, 'pain' and 'agony' are merely private behaviors, limited to an illusionary and unimportant 'self'. Why should being grinded up for hamburger make any more difference during transport than being instantly vaporized or put to sleep? Either way, according to you, a few minutes later, you wake up whole and sound and partying on the Red Planet...

...don't you?
 
Insofar as they are aspects of consciousness, all of them are thinking.

I can only surmise that your experience of life is strikingly different from mine. Thinking to me is a discreet process, the sensation of there being strings of thoughts passing into and out of awareness. Looking at this monitor is quite different.

So, either your experience is radically different and it somehow appears to you that you are thinking the monitor into existence or something, or you are conflating data in order to make the issue more simple.

It certainly deals with selfhood.

Well, I'll find out when I get that far. Currently I'm with Ramachandran, who's quoted as stating that we are just about ready to start scratching the surface of this issue.

Serious question: Why do you think the so-called "hard problem" is even coherent?

Because there is experience and the apparent phenomenom of subjectivity. Anyone can say that the brain is a data processor, that the mind is what the brain does. It's no problem. But to get from that down to neuronal modelling is a quite different thing. Your confidence here is not mirrored by any of the major names in consciousness research as far as I'm aware. I read Blackmore's excellent series of interviews with 20 or so of the usual suspects recently and I don't recall anyone having anywhere near the confidence you seem to regularly display in these threads, Pixy.

So, either you're the recipient of some near transcendental level of understanding not shared by Dennett, Ramachandran, Baars, Searle, the Churchlands, O'Regan, Crick, Chalmers, and the rest of the gang, or you are misleading yourself as to your level of actual understanding. That's how I see it.

Nick
 
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Nick227 said:
All information transfer relies on direct, continuous interactions between something physical. At a fundamental level there is no such thing as discontinuity.

...

Something about the way you said this gets me to thinking... I'm not sure what yet. Give me time to mull it over.
 
We'd like even one.

EVERY act of sensory processing involves thinking, Nick. EVERY act of sensation directly involves brain processes.

If you define all brain processing as "thinking" then for sure you're correct. I am not defining it that way, and I'm not aware that it's common to do so.

Visual images, for a start, are to me, quite different from thoughts. For a start, someone sitting next to me can share the same visual experience. They won't share the same thoughts. I can look at this monitor, or pretty much anything else, without any thoughts present. Thinking is not the same as seeing. Thinking is not the same as smelling. Thinking is not the same as emoting. It is, I would grant you, possibly related to hearing.

Nick
 
God, here we go again...


Nick, do you realize that when you start down this "no self" path it dilutes any other arguments simply because everyone else jumps in with their opinion and any other issues get lost in the flood?

I mean, you had a chance to concentrate on some very fundamental issues -- a chance to soundly show some people are flat out wrong -- and instead you had to throw in your old dead horse because apparently its carcass isn't stomped enough.

But Self is the core issue in the Teletransporter experiment, RD. For most people anyway. Because we believe we are more than just information we fight with the idea of getting in.

Nick
 
What difference would a decade of 'successful transmissions' have to do with whether or not you'd walk into a meat-grinder transporter, or allow the government's 'originality adjuster' to shoot you in the head and allow the duplicate to live on?

Your answers may have been predicated upon a lack of 'decades of evidence' as to their processes' supposed efficacy, but to me they reveal that there is a serious disconnect within your own thinking about this process. Case H is absolutely the same as Blackmore's experiment, except that I failed, in each case, to say that these things have been happening all the time; and, aside from minor, unimportant issues like 'pain' and 'agony', cases F-H are all identical in most significant ways. After all, 'pain' and 'agony' are merely private behaviors, limited to an illusionary and unimportant 'self'. Why should being grinded up for hamburger make any more difference during transport than being instantly vaporized or put to sleep? Either way, according to you, a few minutes later, you wake up whole and sound and partying on the Red Planet...

...don't you?

For me you need to reword it a bit. It all seems to be about pain and agony for you and I'm sure I'm no keener than you to be in pain or agony.

The point is...if it's a painless demise and your replica arrives on Koh Tao Island a millisecond later, what's the difference between this and a 12 hour plane flight and 3 inflight meals? If consciousness is just information, and there is no persisting self, then what's the problem? Why bother half-poisoning yourself and being subjected to crappy inflight movies if you can just go in a millisecond? If consciousness is just information then where's the difference?

Like RD says, it comes down to how you view the relationship between a substrate and the information that it processes.

Nick
 
I can only surmise that your experience of life is strikingly different from mine. Thinking to me is a discreet process, the sensation of there being strings of thoughts passing into and out of awareness. Looking at this monitor is quite different.

I have a feeling we're having a difficulty of semantics here, rather than a conceptual one.

When I say 'thinking' - and I believe Pixy is in the same canoe as I am - I refer to the processes occuring within the brain, either within 'conscious awareness' or not. As it is, all sensory activity occurs within 'conscious awareness' - not, necessarily, within the focus of that awareness, but definitely within conscious awareness. Without thought process, sensory activity doesn't happen. An eye, detached from its brain, no longer sees; a taste bud on a severed tongue no longer tastes. There is a process in the brain that translates the signals from our sensory systems into a sensation - that is, some part of our brain translates input from a given nerve bundle, and reports to the other parts, as needed, that we've just 'felt heat' or 'tasted calamari' or 'had incredible spiritual experiences with Cameron Diaz'. Yes, the unified idea of a conscious 'self' IS an illusion - because it's more of an interawareness between various and sundry parts of the brain which generates the illusion of singularitym, when it's really more likely that our brain is like a communal hive - each part sending and receiving information from each other part, generating an overall 'sense' of self.

All thought.

So, either your experience is radically different and it somehow appears to you that you are thinking the monitor into existence or something, or you are conflating data in order to make the issue more simple.

Or we're having issues with semantics. My guess is that you see 'thought' as an active, intentional process - something commanded by the self, intentional, with definite purpose or something. Ironic, since you also see 'self' as an empty illusion.

Because there is experience and the apparent phenomenom of subjectivity. Anyone can say that the brain is a data processor, that the mind is what the brain does. It's no problem. But to get from that down to neuronal modelling is a quite different thing. Your confidence here is not mirrored by any of the major names in consciousness research as far as I'm aware. I read Blackmore's excellent series of interviews with 20 or so of the usual suspects recently and I don't recall anyone having anywhere near the confidence you seem to regularly display in these threads, Pixy.

Ironically, those who USUALLY cling with such fervor to the alleged 'hard problem' are dualists or idealists, not materialists; USUALLY, the materialists are satisfied in saying, 'it's all in the brain/it's all covered by physics/we may not know it yet, but it's coming soon'.

Blackmore, IIRC, started out not as a materialist, but as either idealist or dualist. I don't remember which. In many ways, in spite of her incredible progress, she's still plagued by ghosts of her past.

So, either you're the recipient of some near transcendental level of understanding not shared by Dennett, Ramachandran, Searle, the Churchlands, O'Regan, Crick, Chalmers, and the rest of the gang, or you are misleading yourself as to your level of actual understanding. That's how I see it.

Pretty black-and-white thinking.

You are definitely seeming less 'materialist' by the moment, Nick. I think RD is having that inkling too, at the moment.
 
But Self is the core issue in the Teletransporter experiment, RD. For most people anyway. Because we believe we are more than just information we fight with the idea of getting in.

Nick

And even us who have no views on whether we are "just information" or not (because it makes no difference) fight about getting into these transporters.

Some of us just don't like killing people, even spares.
 
Either way, according to you, a few minutes later, you wake up whole and sound and partying on the Red Planet...

...don't you?

You do understand there is a difference between coming to a rational realisation and living as an emotional being don't you?
 
If you define all brain processing as "thinking" then for sure you're correct. I am not defining it that way, and I'm not aware that it's common to do so.

Visual images, for a start, are to me, quite different from thoughts. For a start, someone sitting next to me can share the same visual experience. They won't share the same thoughts. I can look at this monitor, or pretty much anything else, without any thoughts present. Thinking is not the same as seeing. Thinking is not the same as smelling. Thinking is not the same as emoting. It is, I would grant you, possibly related to hearing.

Nick

A-HA!

I think I understand a little better. You think in words, don't you, Nick?

Not everyone does. Some people think in spoken words - like you. Some think in written words. Some think in pictures. I think in icons.

Do you know the load screens on The Sims 2, with all those little generic images of chairs, shirts, etc.? That's very similar to how my thoughts work, except that there are also icons for actions, adjectives, abstract concepts, words, sounds, colors, etc. It's actually been a difficult road to get to where I am today, language-wise, because my first instinct is to communicate via icon. Obviously, there aren't many of us out there, or language might be a very different issue.

For you, hearing is related to thinking because you consciously think in words. For me, thinking is related to ALL SENSES, because every sensory input has a corresponding mental icon, and there is always a brief lag between sensation and comprehension for me, during which raw sensation is translated into comprehensible thought.

But, realistically speaking, there's no difference between sight, hearing, smell, taste, proprioreception, balance, proximity detection, etc. ALL are equally related to thought - ALL require similar types of brain processing to acquire.

No, two people experiencing the same stimulus will not have the same brain processes going on - though they often DO occur in the same areas of the brain. But no two people have the same history, the same background, the same DNA coding, the same spacetime location, the same quantum signature, etc. And there's another interesting thing about brains that comes into play here.

No two brains develop the same. Physically, yes - they are very similar. But they're like a room full of LEGOs, scattered about, with some vague instructions of how things MIGHT work, and some vague input from time to time about what we want to do. Some processes work better than others, but sometimes the brain develops processes that only work 'good enough' - or sometimes, not - and sometimes the brain develops processes that work amazingly well. Sometimes, the brain develops redundant processes; sometimes, it runs a single process on a single, tenuous path, and when something goes wrong, there's no back-up.

That controls language, too. Sure, there's some generic things that tend to be true as the brain develops language - but it's not always true. Like a million people studied to see what ice cream flavor they like, you'll see trends and patterns, but you'll also see anomalies.

Just an interesting observation. You're a spoken language thinker. That actually says a lot about you.

Let me ask you one more quick question - and this isn't being rude or silly or anything. When you read, if you're alone - do you catch yourselves sometimes breathing the words, or talking quietly to yourself? Does your tongue try to shape the words as you read, almost without you realizing it? I've heard this is true for, like, 70% of the world. Just curious.
 
But Self is the core issue in the Teletransporter experiment, RD. For most people anyway. Because we believe we are more than just information we fight with the idea of getting in.

Nick

But that isn't your dead horse, Nick.

Your dead horse -- and I know this, because you argued with me about it, and I am one of the most outspoken hardcore materialists on these forums -- is about how you define self.

We (and by "we" I mean educated materialists) all understand that whatever is going on in our minds is a physical processes, and we all agree that it is very illusory and not centrally located and blah blah all that Dennet stuff.

What you constantly argue about is what things should be called. Why do you waste your time? If Pixy wants to lable the collection of processes in his head as his "I" then why shouldn't he? He fully understands the nature of those processes, he doesn't think there is a dualistic homunculus in there.

I mean, this outstanding argument of yours -- that has been going on for over a year -- is tantamount to a mathematician getting after a colleague because they use a different set of variable labels than you. Who cares if Pixy wants to use T and U instead of X and Y? The equation is the same regardless.
 

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