Merged Stolen Palestinian Land

[Oliver]

Irrelevant.

ETA: I would have liked the creation of Canada to have been made intelligently and considerately of the native peoples' rights, and that they should have become a much more intrinsic part of our government, but history happened in another way, we can't change it, the 30 million Canadians can't do anything about it. It's done.

The same thing with Israel, the 7.28 million Israelis can't change what happened 60 years ago. Even if Hamas was right (which they're not, BTW, history is much more complex than your cartoon view of it, I don't need to give you a history lesson about how the Arab countries have their fair share of the blame for the bloodshed and continued violence), Israel is there now.

"Even if Hamas was right [wich they're not]..."

Right about what?

And what is your view about the issue if mine is a "cartoon version of history"?

 

[Cleon]

It gets confusing (and frustrating) when everyone jumps in without reading the contents of the posts one is answering to is all.

I'm very sorry if you were confused by my stating my views on the matter.

 

[Oliver]

I'm very sorry if you were confused by my stating my views on the matter.

He seem's to have bias concerning this issue, which is okay - even if it's not sceptical, but may I ask you what your opinion is about how to solve the fundamental disagreements - and what you think will happen once the Israeli Government has to clear the settlements?

 

[Pardalis]

He seem's to have bias concerning this issue, which is okay - even if it's not sceptical, but may I ask you what your opinion is about how to solve the fundamental disagreements - and what you think will happen once the Israeli Government has to clear the settlements?

To the question "So you agree with Israel's enemies that Jews should resettle elsewhere than Israel, that Israel should be destroyed?"

you answered "yes"

Just because I'm tired and will go to sleep now: Yes.

This ^ is the fundamental problem, and you're not helping.

 

[Oliver]

To the question "So you agree with Israel's enemies that Jews should resettle elsewhere than Israel, that Israel should be destroyed?"

you answered "yes"

This ^ is the fundamental problem, and you're not helping.

You know that I was kidding, right?

My point was that both sides are to blame. It's not all about Hamas, it's also about Israel being responsible that a resistance like Hamas exists because the lack of a fair, but unfotunately most probably also inconvenient deal for Israel. Do you understand that?

 

[Pardalis]

My point was that both sides are to blame. It's not all about Hamas, it's also about Israel being responsible that a resistance like Hamas exists because the lack of a fair, but unfotunately most probably also inconvenient deal for Israel.

This is not why Hamas exists. They exist because they don't want Israel there at all, and you seem to agree with them:

For Hamas and regimes like Iran, Israel itself is stolen land (again, pay attention, I'm not talking about the illegal settlements in the West Bank, but the entire Israel where it stands now), so therefore for them Israel has no right to exist.

Do you agree with that assessment?

Yes, it's a historic fact that the declaration of independence was theft.

It's pretty clear that it is the case, unless you were also kidding that time too?

 

[gdnp]

This is not why Hamas exists. They exist because they don't want Israel there at all, and you seem to agree with them:

I see this as a somewhat simplistic assessment. Clearly, Hamas's charter calls for the replacement of Israel with an Islamist republic. The question remains why so many muslims support this aim, despite all the pain, suffering, and death that it has called. The religion clearly has a lot to do with it, but Israeli actions have also contributed. Their occupation and colonization of Arab lands is a festering wound.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

He thinks there are zionists who support Israel's right to exist and then there are Zionists who are part of the secret conspiracy to control the world (or whatever it is that secret conspriacies get up to).

When it became obvious that no relatively sane person could argue that all Jews were in on the conspiracy they replaced Jew with zionist but the conspiracy theory stayed the same. Now its obvious that zionists are just people who think that Israel has a right to exist so they have had to create Zionists to describe the Secret Ones.

Same old conspiracy, new names.

I don't know whether TFT is actually aware of the process or whether he just wants to believe that there is some conspiracy out there.

Is there something wrong with you?

What have secret conspiracies to control the world got to do with this?

You're deluded. Clearly.

Shall we talk about great Meat Loaf recipes?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

why in the name of God would a Jew live in Israel, as an Israeli citizen, if they DID NOT believe in the right of the Jewish State to exist???

this is the essence of Zionism. the belief in the right of the Jewish State to exist in Palestine. all else is politics.

TFT- do you honestly not understand what Zionism means? I thought you were smarter then this.

Of puhlease Parky.


I'm talking about the Zionist MOVEMENT. Not just a person who thinks the Jews have right to a homeland.


Answer me this. Why would a Jewish Israeli condemn the actions of Zionist Movement against the Palestinians? Perhaps this Jewish Israeli is happy with that Israeli doesn't take up all of Palestine and is not bothered about the obvious expansionist agenda of the Zionist Movement.

Of course I understand what zionism means, but I also understand that the agenda of the Zionist movement is not something that all Jews ( including those who live in Israel ) condone.

 

[Oliver]

This is not why Hamas exists. They exist because they don't want Israel there at all, and you seem to agree with them:

It's pretty clear that it is the case, unless you were also kidding that time too?

No, I'm not agreeing with Hamas or Iran about "Israel's right not to exist".
All I'm saying is that the resistance has a point as well. Also, Hamas came about pretty late and Fatah once was a Terrorist Organisation as well. Maybe Hamas, PIJ, Al-Aqsa&Co will also take a more diplomatic approach one day and other radical streams will emerge you can whine about.

Therefore the only solution for Israel is to settle this issue - and by that I'm not talking about settlements, but to get to a compromise that show's that Israel is serious about wanting peace with - and freedoms for - their neighbors.

Thanks to the inner-political diversity, this will be a hard task for Israel.
And America's biased military and economical support for one side isn't helpful either, because it undermines the pressure needed to unite Israeli's towards the goal of a peace agreement.

All of that doesn't make sense to you, am I right?

 

[Pardalis]

Their occupation and colonization of Arab lands is a festering wound.

So what? They should deal with it. Israel isn't going anywhere, they should accept Israel's existence, the longer they deny it and complain about it, the longer this conflict will persist and the longer the Palestinian state will have to wait.

No, I'm not agreeing with Hamas or Iran about "Israel's right not to exist".

Yes you are, you just said it.

All I'm saying is that the resistance has a point as well. Also, Hamas came about pretty late and Fatah once was a Terrorist Organisation as well. Maybe Hamas, PIJ, Al-Aqsa&Co will also take a more diplomatic approach one day and other radical streams will emerge you can whine about.

Yes, the PLO finally became a legitimate and somewhat morderate party with which to deal with. Hamas is still an extremist entity that is impossible to deal with without violence.

Therefore the only solution for Israel is to settle this issue

HOW?
How can Israel settle this issue when Hamas and Iran want nothing more than it gone?

 

[gdnp]

So what? They should deal with it. Israel isn't going anywhere, they should accept Israel's existence, the longer they deny it and complain about it, the longer this conflict will persist and the longer the Palestinian state will have to wait.

I agree that the Palestinians would be foolish to admit to themselves that Israel exists and is not going away any time soon.

This is a much different thing, however, than formally recognizing the state of Israel. That will only come with a negotiated peace treaty.

To put it bluntly, the only thing the Palestinians have to offer Israel is peace. They have no capital, no resources, and even their land is mostly desert. I suppose they could also potentially offer a source of cheap unskilled labor, but the world has plenty of that. For the Palestinians to formally recognize Israel and renounce violence is to surrender and accept peace on Israel's terms. Israel has been trying to get the Palestinians to accept this bargain for decades, but have thus far failed. If anything, they have only further radicalized the Palestinian population.

Hey, if I had easy answers I'd be the middle east envoy, not George Mitchell.

 

[Oliver]

So what? They should deal with it. Israel isn't going anywhere, they should accept Israel's existence, the longer they deny it and complain about it, the longer this conflict will persist and the longer the Palestinian state will have to wait.

Yes you are, you just said it.

Yes, the PLO finally became a legitimate and somewhat morderate party with which to deal with. Hamas is still an extremist entity that is impossible to deal with without violence.

HOW?
How can Israel settle this issue when Hamas and Iran want nothing more than it gone?

Back in 1948 ALL neighbors didn't grant Israel the right to exist. Also Fatah didn't accept Israel for a period of time. Same will be true about Hamas IF Israel weakens the resistance due to a fair deal for Palestinians. Israel's stance still is to enhance their influence conerning the open points of the peace deal, but that will not work because the resistance will not accept that. The key here is to appeal to the Palestinians with a solution that would moderate those who voted and supported Hamas&Co in the first place.

On the other Hand, Israel is doing pretty well in contrast to the trashed Gaza. Hamas&Co might be a small annoyance for Israel, but the situation doesn't really bother them because they have a pretty good infrastructure, water, money, economy, military and work.

All the things the Palestininans, especially in Gaza, do not really have. And boy, would you and me be pissed about Israel if we had to live there. [Unless you are stupid, of course]

 

[Oliver]

I see this as a somewhat simplistic assessment. Clearly, Hamas's charter calls for the replacement of Israel with an Islamist republic. The question remains why so many muslims support this aim, despite all the pain, suffering, and death that it has called. The religion clearly has a lot to do with it, but Israeli actions have also contributed. Their occupation and colonization of Arab lands is a festering wound.

I doubt that Goury accepts that fundamental thingy you just pointed out.

 

[gdnp]

Back in 1948 ALL neighbors didn't grant Israel the right to exist. Also Fatah didn't accept Israel for a period of time. Same will be true about Hamas IF Israel weakens the resistance due to a fair deal for Palestinians. Israel's stance still is to enhance their influence conerning the open points of the peace deal, but that will not work because the resistance will not accept that. The key here is to appeal to the Palestinians with a solution that would moderate those who voted and supported Hamas&Co in the first place.

Or to state it another way, if Hamas were to renounce violence and accept Israel today, and Israel were to continue the same policies that they have been following, how long would it take for a new radical group to take Hamas's place?

 

[Oliver]

Or to state it another way, if Hamas were to renounce violence and accept Israel today, and Israel were to continue the same policies that they have been following, how long would it take for a new radical group to take Hamas's place?

Well, if Israel would lay out a plan that the majority of Palestinians could agree on instantly, the Pals would kick out Hamas themselves. The question is if Israel actually want's peace. They don't necesseraly need it - being surrounded by pretty weak enemies by now, and they probably don't know how to get their own folks out of the Westbank without radicalizing them against the Government, either.

 

[Thunder]

Of puhlease Parky.


I'm talking about the Zionist MOVEMENT. Not just a person who thinks the Jews have right to a homeland.


Answer me this. Why would a Jewish Israeli condemn the actions of Zionist Movement against the Palestinians? Perhaps this Jewish Israeli is happy with that Israeli doesn't take up all of Palestine and is not bothered about the obvious expansionist agenda of the Zionist Movement.

Of course I understand what zionism means, but I also understand that the agenda of the Zionist movement is not something that all Jews ( including those who live in Israel ) condone.

Please do us ALL a favor and define "The Zionist Movement".

Cause I honesty have no friggin' idea of what you are talking about.

 

[gdnp]

Well, if Israel would lay out a plan that the majority of Palestinians could agree on instantly, the Pals would kick out Hamas themselves.

Which would not be continuing the same policies that they have been following. It would be a major change.

Hamas, for example, refrained from firing rockets for periods of over a week during the 6 month cease-fire, with (by some accounts, at least) two months having only 2 rocket each. Israel made no gesture to reward this good behavior. Why should we believe that if the Palestinians were to renounce violence that Israel would give them favorable peace terms in return?

The question is if Israel actually want's peace.

I'd say the question is whether Israel wants peace enough to make the painful concessions necessary to achieve peace, and more generally whether there is enough common ground between the Israelis and Palestinians that a peace deal acceptable to both is currently achievable.

I want to lose 10 pounds. I just don't want to lose 10 pounds enough to eat less and exercise more.

They don't necesseraly need it - being surrounded by pretty weak enemies by now, and they probably don't know how to get their own folks out of the Westbank without radicalizing them against the Government, either.

One of the problems of representative parliamentary systems like Israel's is that it gives inordinate power to minority parties that are needed to form a coalition government. The need to constantly appease these parties or have your government fall is difficult to overcome. You need either an overwhelming electoral mandate or to form a "unity government" with your main rivals.

 

[Pardalis]

Back in 1948 ALL neighbors didn't grant Israel the right to exist.

Yes, hence the wars.

Same will be true about Hamas IF Israel weakens the resistance due to a fair deal for Palestinians.

And what "fair deal" would that be?

The key here is to appeal to the Palestinians with a solution that would moderate those who voted and supported Hamas&Co in the first place.

Again, what would appeal to them, since they want nothing more than Israel's total disappearance?

Hamas, for example, refrained from firing rockets for periods of over a week during the 6 month cease-fire, with (by some accounts, at least) two months having only 2 rocket each. Israel made no gesture to reward this good behavior.

Because as we all know, Hamas ended up breaking the cease fire anyway.

I'd say the question is whether Israel wants peace enough to make the painful concessions necessary to achieve peace,

What would be those concessions?

 

[gdnp]

Because as we all know, Hamas ended up breaking the cease fire anyway.

Well, I can't say that I am privy to their reasoning, but if I had agreed to a cease-fire with the expectation that the blockade would be eased, and after 6 months there was no easing of the blockade, I would begin to wonder whether the other side was really dealing in good faith.

What would be those concessions?

Not really my call. Some of the things that might be necessary:

Return of all or most of the west bank and east jerusalem, evacuating or dismantling settlements, equal rights for Arabs in Israel, compensation for confiscated land, limited right of return. Maybe international control of the temple mount. That sort of thing. Stopping the expansion of settlements and dismantling illegal ones would be a good start.