Merged Stolen Palestinian Land

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Comes as no surprise to me ....

The Jeruslam Post.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304639870&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

'New settlement info implicates gov't'

A newly leaked database detailing the complicity of the government in widespread illegal construction in West Bank settlements will be used to help Palestinians file lawsuits over what they say is their lost land, rights group Yesh Din said Friday.

The classified database, compiled by the Defense Ministry and obtained by Yesh Din, shows that government agencies and private companies building settlements in the West Bank widely ignored Israeli law, in many cases seizing land that belongs to Palestinians. It also demonstrates that the government has long been aware of the lawbreaking and has kept it secret.

More than 30 settlements were built in part on land owned by Palestinians, the report shows, and in three out of every four settlements some construction was conducted without proper permits.

 

[Thunder]

Israeli govt. database PROVES settlements built illegaly and on stolen land

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html

This is bad...very very bad. It appears the the Israeli govt. and the Israeli military knowingly and willingly built Jewish settlements without proper permits in the West Bank..and often times built settlements on privately owned Palestinian land.

This....is criminal...even within the laws of Israel. And building on private property..is theft.

I have decided.....until and unless this is dealt with and redressed...I shall no longer identify myself as a Zionist. I am now officially agnostic on the Zionist issue.

 

[a_unique_person]

I think the Zionist/Anti-Zionist question is a dead issue. Israel exists, it's not going away. The only question is, what is the most just outcome that can be achieved. Settlements are being actively encouraged when one of their points for existence is to prevent a just solution. A one state solution is not going to happen, it would mean Israel is no longer a Jewish state. A two state solution is also actively being prevented by the settlement movement. What other solution is there?

 

[Oliver]

Well, Parky - if you go down that road, the declaration of the state of Israel was theft of Land.

But the more interesting question is what will happen if Israel is forced to withdraw from the occupied land. That might lead to an inner-political split throughout the whole Israeli society. Just last week, CBS reported about the Settlements and the crux in this story:

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html

This is bad...very very bad. It appears the the Israeli govt. and the Israeli military knowingly and willingly built Jewish settlements without proper permits in the West Bank..and often times built settlements on privately owned Palestinian land.

This....is criminal...even within the laws of Israel. And building on private property..is theft.

I have decided.....until and unless this is dealt with and redressed...I shall no longer identify myself as a Zionist. I am now officially agnostic on the Zionist issue.

I actually already posted on this one Parky. Beat ya by a few minutes.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134340

I found it in the Jerusalam post.

But this crap has been going on for 60 years and more. Comes as no surprise to me.



I'll ask the mods to merge threads

 

[Thunder]

Oliver- Israel within the 1948 borders is not stolen land. Much of the land was "owned" by absentee Turkish and Arab landlords. And either way, it is standard operating procedure that when a nation is attacked, and it wins land in a war, the land becomes property of the state. The 1967 borders are recognized as the legitimate borders of the State of Israel. And Israeli Arabs are compensated for land lost within Israel.

If Israel within the 1967 borders is on stolen land..then the USA within the 1776 borders is on stolen land....Russia within the 1917 borders is on stolen land.....Canada is on stolen land..etc etc.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Israel's expansionism was always going to increase it's area over the 1967 borders. Israel won't stop until it gets the lot. This is the Zionist agenda. There will always be some people who deny it of course.

 

[Thunder]

Israel's expansionism was always going to increase it's area over the 1967 borders. Israel won't stop until it gets the lot. This is the Zionist agenda. There will always be some people who deny it of course.

TFT- please, answer this question.

If Israel really wants to eventually control ALL of the West Bank..then why does the multi-billion dollar Hafrada Wall separate Israel from about 90% of the West Bank???

 

[Oliver]

Oliver- Israel within the 1948 borders is not stolen land. Much of the land was "owned" by absentee Turkish and Arab landlords. And either way, it is standard operating procedure that when a nation is attacked, and it wins land in a war, the land becomes property of the state. The 1967 borders are recognized as the legitimate borders of the State of Israel. And Israeli Arabs are compensated for land lost within Israel.

If Israel within the 1967 borders is on stolen land..then the USA within the 1776 borders is on stolen land....Russia within the 1917 borders is on stolen land.....Canada is on stolen land..etc etc.

Well, it IS stolen land by the very definition of property. In your examples, there just isn't any resistance anymore - and it's out of fashion to just shoot the "native terrorists" nowadays, while putting them into "reservations" still seems to be acceptable.

Anyway: The topic is about the Settlements. Did you watch the 60 minutes coverage about this very topic? And what do you think will happen if the Israeli Army will get the order to get the Israeli's out of the settlements? Will they obey? Or will the Knesset break apart about this question and the responses to it's execution - and with it, the whole Israeli society?

I doubt that there won't be any major resistance when it comes to leaving the settlements, especially in case of the "promised"-Fundies - who, in some cases do consider terrorism as well to get their will across.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

TFT- please, answer this question.

If Israel really wants to eventually control ALL of the West Bank..then why does the multi-billion dollar Hafrada Wall separate Israel from about 90% of the West Bank???

It's one method in many to harras the Palestinians. A method of asserting control. These huge concrete walls and 700 Israeli checkpoints that snake around remaining Palestinian areas have negative impact on their lives.

And so no one is misled Palestinians certainly don't have 90% of the West bank at least 40% of it commandeered as Israeli Military land.

These walls are disgusting and are a blatant display of how the Israel government feels about the Untermenchen it wants to eventually rid from what it believes is the Promised Land.

You answer me this parky? Do you really believe the longterm agenda of Israel is for a 2 state solution in Palestine, one for Israelis, one for Palestinians? Even you cannot claim Israel doesn't want to share Jerusalem. But what about the rest? The West Bank and Gaza? Israel is slowly eating into the West Bank ( the concrete walls aren't permanent. I believe new ones are still being erected ) and Gaza is the filthy ghetto in the corner where Israel controls it's lifeline and murders a bunch of them now and again if any dare to complain.

If there wasn't a world watching Israel would have the lot by now. however it works just within the boundaries of world decency. And it's blockade of journalists in Gaza recently shows that when it steps well over the line it doesn't want the world to watch. Kick the victim to death in the back alley where no one is watching.

This is a long term agenda. Herzl said it would be 50 years before Israel was created. Ge was right. This stepping stone was reached in 1948. Fulfilling the rest of the agenda may take much longer, but not even your most right wing Zionist extremist thinks it's going to happen next week. Even though they dream of taht

 

[a_unique_person]

TFT- please, answer this question.

If Israel really wants to eventually control ALL of the West Bank..then why does the multi-billion dollar Hafrada Wall separate Israel from about 90% of the West Bank???

That's a good question, and one I'd like an answer to. From here it looks like the result of political differences. Likud and other conservative parties have no intention of giving up anything, but Olmert says it's time to realise the dream of Eretz Israel is dead, so I'd guess it's going to be a multi-billion dollar white elephant, given that the conservatives are set for a huge win in the election.

 

[Thunder]

TFT- as expected...you failed to deal with the lack of logic behind the idea that Israel wants to rule and control ALL of the West Bank..yet they built a wall that seperates 90% of the West Bank from Israel proper.

Logic, if you had any, would conclude that the purpose of the wall, is to eventually withdraw from the settlements east of the wall...and annex those areas to the west.

I believe that the borders of the Hafrada wall are racist and unfair..and so does the Israeli Supreme Court. They have forced Israel to adjust its path several times.

The wall....will eventually become Israel's border. Those Israeli Jews who live east of the wall...will have to return to Israel.

Israeli Jews are not stupid people. They did not spend billions of dollars on a wall that they would eventually never use.

That's..unless...you believe in evil Jew conspiracy theories. Do you believe in secret diabolical Jew conspiracy theories...TFT?

 

[Tricky]

Merged at OP-er's request

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

 

[a_unique_person]

Israeli Jews are not stupid people. They did not spend billions of dollars on a wall that they would eventually never use.

Every day I see people who aren't Isreali and aren't Jews make stupid decisions, and waste billions on government and non government spending decisions. I don't expect Jews and Israelis to be any different.

That's..unless...you believe in evil Jew conspiracy theories. Do you believe in secret diabolical Jew conspiracy theories...TFT?

Governments around the world lie and dissemble every day. It's called politics, it's about what they think is going to keep them in power, it's about what they think is good for us.

According to the database, the state gave the World Zionist Organization (WZO) and/or the Construction and Housing Ministry authorization to plan and build on most of the territories upon which the settlements were constructed. These bodies allocated the land to those who eventually carried out the actual construction of the settlement: Sometimes it was the Settlement Division of the WZO and other times it was the Construction and Housing Ministry itself, sometimes through the Rural Building Administration. In several cases, settlements were built by Amana, the Gush Emunim settlement arm. Another body cited in the database as having received allocations and being responsible for construction in some of the settlements is Gush Emunim's Settler National Fund.

WZO? Now that sounds like perfect conspiracy material. But if you read on

A young woman in slacks, taking her baby to the doctor, stopped for a moment to chat. She moved here from Ashkelon because her husband's parents are among the settlement's founders. When her son is old enough for preschool, she won't send him to the Talmud Torah. Not because it sits on private land, but just because that's not the type of education she wants for him. "I don't think there's been construction on private land here," she said. "I don't think there ought to be, either."

So Jewish woman doesn't think private land should be stolen, but the fact that it is has been hidden from her. Hardly a Jewish conspiracy.

The article you quoted led me to this.

http://www.shalomctr.org/node/842

The lines between WZO and the Jewish Agency are not always clear, however. While Settlement Division activities are funded by the government, the infrastructure of WZO, including the Settlement Division, is funded largely by the Jewish Agency, which in turn is funded by American Jewish federations.
The Settlement Division's work in the territories was originally a topic of WZO debate. At the 1982 World Zionist Congress, a resolution to end the WZO's role in settlements was narrowly defeated in a procedural maneuver by WZO's Likud-appointed chairman. Soon afterward, Ariel Sharon, who had been forced to resign as defense minister after the 1982 Lebanon War, was nominated to head the division, but was rejected because liberal delegates feared he would override oversight rules.
In the mid-1980s, however, feuding over religious pluralism eclipsed debate over settlements. Delegate elections to the World Zionist Congress in 1987 saw the entry for the first time of a slate representing Reform Judaism, which swept the American balloting that year.
According to Rabbi Eric Yoffie, founding director of the Reform Zionist group and now president of the Union for Reform Judaism, debate over settlements dissipated during the 1980s, in part because it became clear that the Israeli government was calling the shots. "At a certain point, people saw this was not going to be resolved in the WZO, so there was just no purpose to further debates," Yoffie said.

So it appears the WZO has deep internal divisions on the matter. Once again, not a conspiracy by Jews, but successive Israeli Governments who think they know better, and don't tell their constituents what they are really up to, and right wing elements of Israeli society who are hell bent on creating Eretz Israel.

As the article says.

The information contained in the database does not conform to the state's official position, as presented, for instance, on the Foreign Ministry Web site, which states: "Israel's actions relating to the use and allocation of land under its administration are all taken with strict regard to the rules and norms of international law - Israel does not requisition private land for the establishment of settlements."

 

[a_unique_person]

Israel's expansionism was always going to increase it's area over the 1967 borders. Israel won't stop until it gets the lot. This is the Zionist agenda. There will always be some people who deny it of course.

There are all kinds of Zionists, a few want much more than Israel as it exists now, some want the Green Line borders, some want the whole of existing state and the West Bank and Gaza. Some want peace, some don't. Pro-Zionist/Anti-Zionist dichotomy is dead.

 

[Puppycow]

Oliver- Israel within the 1948 borders is not stolen land. Much of the land was "owned" by absentee Turkish and Arab landlords. And either way, it is standard operating procedure that when a nation is attacked, and it wins land in a war, the land becomes property of the state. The 1967 borders are recognized as the legitimate borders of the State of Israel. And Israeli Arabs are compensated for land lost within Israel.

If Israel within the 1967 borders is on stolen land..then the USA within the 1776 borders is on stolen land....Russia within the 1917 borders is on stolen land.....Canada is on stolen land..etc etc.

This is why it is always so hard for me to know what to think about all this.

While I'm against taking land by force, America's land was taken by force, as was probably all land if you go back far enough. The only solution seems to be to pick some arbitray date and say "The claims that were legitimate on this date are the claims that will be recognized."

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Let's just keep this on the front page for Skeptic et. al.

 

[Thunder]

Well...much of the world recognizes the territorial gains made during the Yugoslav civil war..and that was during the 1990s.

 

[Thunder]

There are all kinds of Zionists, a few want much more than Israel as it exists now, some want the Green Line borders, some want the whole of existing state and the West Bank and Gaza. Some want peace, some don't. Pro-Zionist/Anti-Zionist dichotomy is dead.

Looking at highly complicated political issues through a very polar perspective is how extremists are able to get their points across.

black or white....green or red....blue or pink...makes things a lot easier

....for idiots.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Looking at highly complicated political issues through a very polar perspective is how extremists are able to get their points across.

black or white....green or red....blue or pink...makes things a lot easier

....for idiots.

Well I'm going to invent a new word for those Zionists who do want Israel to have hegemony on the middle east and want take all of Palestine by persecuting the Palestinians, stealing their land, apartheid, bloody slaughter, etc,etc

But look, I've always seen the distinction between a zionist and a Zionist. The former being simply someone who believes Israel has a right to exist and the latter the Political movement that. Hell even I could be a zionist as I do believe Israel has a right to exist, but I'm certainly NOT a Zionist ( as is obvious by now ) and I'm highly critical of the methods used to create Israel and the methods used to expand it's power and area.

But if anyone's making a polarized issue out of things it's so who I call the Zionist Apologists who will, at the slightest excuse, turn it into a binary thinking issue of Jews and anything or anyone critical is Anti-Semitic


But sometimes it's easier just for the sake of ease to say something like "America invaded Iraq" even though most people in America didn't invade Iraq and many didn't support the invasion in any way. I certainly didn't, but I would never accuse anyone of racism who highly criticizes the American Invasion of Iraq.