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Merged Stolen Palestinian Land

Tin Foil Timothy said:
Well I'm going to invent a new word for those Zionists who do want Israel to have hegemony on the middle east and want take all of Palestine by persecuting the Palestinians, stealing their land, apartheid, bloody slaughter, etc,etc

But look, I've always seen the distinction between a zionist and a Zionist. The former being simply someone who believes Israel has a right to exist and the latter the Political movement that. Hell even I could be a zionist as I do believe Israel has a right to exist, but I'm certainly NOT a Zionist ( as is obvious by now :) ) and I'm highly critical of the methods used to create Israel and the methods used to expand it's power and area.

But if anyone's making a polarized issue out of things it's so who I call the Zionist Apologists who will, at the slightest excuse, turn it into a binary thinking issue of Jews and anything or anyone critical is Anti-Semitic


But sometimes it's easier just for the sake of ease to say something like "America invaded Iraq" even though most people in America didn't invade Iraq and many didn't support the invasion in any way. I certainly didn't, but I would never accuse anyone of racism who highly criticizes the American Invasion of Iraq.
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TFT- why can't you just call them "right-wing Zionists" or "Zionist extremists"?

One can believe that Israel has the right to exist in the 1967 borders, believe that Arab Israelis should have complete equal rights, believe that the settlements are illegal and the occupation immoral.

Contrary to popular belief...simply being a Zionist and being a human being are not utterly incompatable.

Anyone who believes that the State of Israel has the simple right to exist is a Zionist. Right-wing Zionists, political extremists, and radical nationalists have totally hijacked the word..and anti-Semites have played along with it.

Hell....even Arafat was a Zionist. He wore a pin on his lapel that had the symbol of Peace Now...which includes an Israel flag and a Palestine flag.
 
parky76 said:
TFT- why can't you just call them "right-wing Zionists" or "Zionist extremists"?

One can believe that Israel has the right to exist in the 1967 borders, believe that Arab Israelis should have complete equal rights, believe that the settlements are illegal and the occupation immoral.

Contrary to popular belief...simply being a Zionist and being a human being are not utterly incompatable.

Anyone who believes that the State of Israel has the simple right to exist is a Zionist. Right-wing Zionists, political extremists, and radical nationalists have totally hijacked the word..and anti-Semites have played along with it.

Hell....even Arafat was a Zionist. He wore a pin on his lapel that had the symbol of Peace Now...which includes an Israel flag and a Palestine flag.
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No, anyone who believes that the State of Israel has the simple right to exist is a zionist.

I can distinguish between a zionist and Zionist. What's really redundant these days is the calling of anyone who simply believes in the right of Israel to exist a zionist (lower case ). This is nothing but a 'confuser'. So I am continue to us the term Zionist for the right wing, fundeamentalist/extremist types. Anyone who simply believes Israel has a right to exist is not a Zionist with an Upper case Z. it requires more than that.


And puhlease.... Forget about the Anti-Semites. This is NOT a Jewish issue ... however much obsessives like Skeptic try and make it so.
 
Anyway... back on topic... the stealing of Palestian's land ....

I notice all the usual suspects, the Zionist Apologists, are quiet on this one. I wonder why? they are stuck. There's concrete evidence. There's no tenable reason to shout Anti-Semite.
 
Something I never understood, but perhaps some of you with more information can answer this:

Do individuals and families build houses in these illegal settlements, or is it just developers or some such? If it's the former, do they really just take possession of land without any even pretense of owning it? (In other words, does some part of the Israeli government give them deed to the land?)

If not, what must be their attitude toward the people whose property they're taking? Is it sort of like our ancestors attitudes toward the Indians here? (That they're savages, somehow not quite human, and that it's our God-given destiny to own this land?)

I've long wondered about this on a more human level.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Something I never understood, but perhaps some of you with more information can answer this:

Do individuals and families build houses in these illegal settlements, or is it just developers or some such? If it's the former, do they really just take possession of land without any even pretense of owning it? (In other words, does some part of the Israeli government give them deed to the land?)

If not, what must be their attitude toward the people whose property they're taking? Is it sort of like our ancestors attitudes toward the Indians here? (That they're savages, somehow not quite human, and that it's our God-given destiny to own this land?)

I've long wondered about this on a more human level.
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Reasonable questions. The settlement issue has been a key element for the maintenance of Jewish control. Non-Jews cannot easily get building permits, and when they build without permits their buildings get knocked down. This prevents any expansion of Arab neighborhoods. Yet this story seems to show that not only is it much easier for Jews to get building permits, but that illegal construction by Israeli Jews has been allowed to proceed under quite different rules. Occasionally illegal settlements are dismantled, but it seems that these were just the tip of the iceberg.
 
parky76 said:
Well...much of the world recognizes the territorial gains made during the Yugoslav civil war..and that was during the 1990s.
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No, there were no territorial gains. International organizations, especially the OSCE, were dead against changing borders. The borders between the Yugoslav states are the same as they were in 1946, and most borders can be traced back long before that when the area was split up between Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire.
 
parky76 said:
TFT- please, answer this question.

If Israel really wants to eventually control ALL of the West Bank..then why does the multi-billion dollar Hafrada Wall separate Israel from about 90% of the West Bank???
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I'm not TFT, but I'd like to comment on this. Is the trajectory of the Hafrada Wall already final? This map has it running to the Jordan on the north side, but it doesn't run by far to the Dead Sea on the south side. Your number doesn't take into account that Israel clings on to a large strip of land in the Jordan valley as "military area" (28.5% according to that map) and in all peace proposals has only offered to give that back in 10 years time or so - so at the whim of future Israeli governments.

I'd also remind of Jeff Halper's (of ICAHD) comment that it's not just the amount of territory, but also which territory, which determines whether the rest is a viable state: you can take 5% out of the West Bank and still make it into a set of bantustans.

On another note, I fully agree that TFT should stop with the rhetoric about "zionists". It's empty rhetoric, and not helpful for the discussion. The "right to exist" of Israel is not the topic of discussion, and there isn't anyone here who argues that Israel should cease to exist.
 
Hm. I wish I could say I was surprised at this news. What botherrs me is that no one in the Isreali government is prone at this time to taking them all back to within the Wall borders and then slowly withdrawing the miltary controlled area to only vital positions to keep the areas within the Wall-border line safe.

... be a nice dream if they did so though.
 
Tin Foil Timothy said:
Anyway... back on topic... the stealing of Palestian's land ....

I notice all the usual suspects, the Zionist Apologists, are quiet on this one. I wonder why? they are stuck. There's concrete evidence. There's no tenable reason to shout Anti-Semite.
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You can stop baiting now.
Sometimes your posts are just a broken record of "Zionist Apologists". Keep crying wolf buddy.
 
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Tin Foil Timothy said:
Well I'm going to invent a new word for those Zionists who do want Israel to have hegemony on the middle east
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Have you looked at the size of Israel compared to the extent of the entire Middle East recently?

Believe me, at this rate of expansion, the Middle East will be safe from the "Zionist hegemony" for a long while.
 
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ddt said:
On another note, I fully agree that TFT should stop with the rhetoric about "zionists". It's empty rhetoric, and not helpful for the discussion. The "right to exist" of Israel is not the topic of discussion, and there isn't anyone here who argues that Israel should cease to exist.
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What utter nonsense. Are you really that naive that you cannot see Zionism as being anything further than Israel's right to exist. Do you really not know the difference between zionism and Zionism?

Even I don't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to exist.

Talk of the Zionist movement is NOT empty rhetoric at all. It's the Zionist ( not the zinoist) movement that is the driving force behind the problems of Palestinian/Israel issues
 
Pardalis said:
Have you looked at the size of Israel compared to the extent of the entire Middle East recently?

Believe me, at this rate of expansion, the Middle East will be safe from the "Zionist hegemony" for a long while.
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Are you serious? Please allow some of us a little intelligence.
 
parky76 said:
You can stop baiting now.
Sometimes your posts are just a broken record of "Zionist Apologists". Keep crying wolf buddy.
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You know parky, you have a good run and then you let yourself down with this nonsense.

I'm not baiting, I'm observing a real phenomenon. They expend an awful lot hot air defending the agenda of Zionism. They claw the rocks with their fingernails in order to divert and deflect any substantial evidence of Israel's atrocities committed against Palestinian children in Gaza.

But when we provide an even more concrete account of the Israel government being complicit in stealing land off Palestinians these Zionist Apologists are no where to be seen. They have no argument. They realize that shouting anti-Semitism, the usual weapon of choice when there's no intelligent rationale left in the holding tank, would be of no use, so there's nothing left. They simply cover there face with a newspaper and walk swiftly and furtively by hoping no one will notice.
 
Tin Foil Timothy said:
Well what do you expect from a 'non-argument' ??
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Let's start again: when is this "Zionist hegemony" going to start? It's been 60 years and they haven't gotten as much as a few miles outside the current state of Israel.

BTW:
Tin Foil Timothy said:
Even I don't argue that Israel doesn't have a right to exist.
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What do you mean by the state of Israel? What is the extent of the territory that is legally theirs?

You seem to be totally against Zionism, but isn't Zionism what created the state of Israel to begin with? And now you're arguing that they have a right to exist? Aren't you contradicting yourself?
 
Pardalis said:
Let's start again: when is this "Zionist hegemony" going to start? It's been 60 years and they haven't gotten as much as a few miles outside the current state of Israel.

BTW:


What do you mean by the state of Israel? What is the extent of the territory that is legally theirs?

You seem to be totally against Zionism, but isn't Zionism what created the state of Israel to begin with? And now you're arguing that they have a right to exist? Aren't you contradicting yourself?
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Someone else who doesn't know the difference between zionism and Zionism
 
Tin Foil Timothy said:
Someone else who doesn't know the difference between zionism and Zionism
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Please enlighten me. You seem to have haphazardly capitalized one word in order to make two words so you can escape a contradiction and avoid answering to the core issue: is Israel itself "stolen land".
 
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