The Phoenix Lights... We Are Not Alone

chuck4842 said:
The Tutors from Canada's AF are nicknamed Snowbirds(responsible for V-formation), and The Warthogs that Lt. Col. Ed Jones flew dropping special flares with now special dispensers during "Operaton Snowbird" happened on the same night. The Kosovo ref. to the new dispensers was in 1999. Yes this does clarify everything , thanks.
Click to expand...

The Tutor aircraft was not solely used by the "Snowbirds" in 1997. The Tutor was a training aircraft used by the Canadian Air Force and they had a fairly large inventory at CFB Moose Jaw. The reason I am making a big deal about this is because I don't want you confusing what I have previously stated. The aircraft I suggest were not "THE Snowbirds" because that group of aircraft were not in Arizona at the time.

Just to make it clear, it is my contention that a flight from CFB Moose Jaw (or possibly some other unit in Canada) was making the rounds in the southern united states as part of their training. Like the Maryland ANG coming to Tuscon, the CAF probably flies into the southern US during the winter months to keep their pilot hours up. After all, winter in Canada lasts pretty long (hard to believe it is longer than NE winters) and it probably limits their flying time.

Here is a link to CFB moose jaw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFB_Moose_Jaw

There is a nice picture of a non-Snowbird Tutor aircraft on the page.
 
Why is this topic even neccassary? All skeptics know that there is nothing unexplained about the phoenix lights, which are just a case of people wanting to believe
 
Astrophotographer said:
Bienz did it on her own and had nothing to do with the USAF as a whole investigating UFOs. That was what I was referring to when I stated the military did not investigate the case. BTW, Richard Motzer from MUFON was stating they were flares long before the press release. For that he was labeled a "debunker" by his fellow MUFONites.
Click to expand...

Im guessing that if your job description is public affairs official, that instead of doing it on your own time , maybe your stupid and obsessed.BTW , I called her and asked if she ever heard of dragons. She said yes. I asked have you ever followed up on it, she said ....HELL NO!
 
Last edited:
Do you even know that the Job Description of a PA officer really is? or are you just assuming that their job involves the sort of things you imagine it does? They only coordinate the release of information. They have no part in the formulation or investigation of that information...
 
LarianLeQuella said:
Do you even know that the Job Description of a PA officer really is? or are you just assuming that their job involves the sort of things you imagine it does? They only coordinate the release of information. They have no part in the formulation or investigation of that information...
Click to expand...

Please enlighten me to how Bienz's investigation wasn't a military investigation according to her job description, I simply don't get it. I also do not understand how any investigation by the military could only be defined a military investigation if it included, as Astro put it, "the AF as a whole". I certainly wouldn't expect the entire AF as a whole to stop everything and investigate any ufo and hope they never do. I guess if you use the "AF as a whole" for your definition, than there has never been a military investigation into anything ever.
 
Last edited:
chuck4842 said:
Please enlighten me to how Bienz's investigation wasn't a military investigation according to her job description, I simply don't get it. I also do not understand how any investigation by the military could only be defined a military investigation if it included, as Astro put it, "the AF as a whole". I certainly wouldn't expect the entire AF as a whole to stop everything and investigate any ufo and hope they never do. I guess if you use the "AF as a whole" for your definition, than there has never been a military investigation into anything ever.
Click to expand...


The point is that Bienz did the investigation on her own initiative. She was not directed to do so by those in authority over her. If they told her to look into it and find out what caused it, then it would have been a formal investigation. That is what I mean by the AF investigating a case. The chain of command directs somebody to perform the task and necessary personnel are assigned to accomplish it.

I am not sure why you can't differentiate between the two. If you want to call Bienz's work an AF investigation, feel free to do so. However, I think most people who have been in the military or associated with the military can understand the difference.
 
It was outside her training and job description. As Astrophotographer said, she could have done it on her own time, but it was not "coordinating and disseminating" information, which is what PA officers do.

She was a PA officer that was curious and did something on her own. She's not an investigator on behalf of the Air Force at the moment she went outside her area of responsibility. I know it's a tough distinction for you to make, but it seems people all over the world have that problem, hence our (Active Duty Members of the Military) 1st Amendment free speech rights are curtailed while on active duty because people can't make that distinction... Thanks for being part of the denominator that forces the DoD to impose those sort of rules on us...
 
Last edited:
Astrophotographer said:
The point is that Bienz did the investigation on her own initiative. She was not directed to do so by those in authority over her. If they told her to look into it and find out what caused it, then it would have been a formal investigation. That is what I mean by the AF investigating a case. The chain of command directs somebody to perform the task and necessary personnel are assigned to accomplish it.

I am not sure why you can't differentiate between the two. If you want to call Bienz's work an AF investigation, feel free to do so. However, I think most people who have been in the military or associated with the military can understand the difference.
Click to expand...

My original point was the ridiculous relation you made between dragons and the ufos. Hell lets call it a military response, I don't give a rats..., I dont see why you can't differentiate humans of anykind not responding to a call about dragons, but responding to a call about ufos. I didn't appreciate being associated with the two.
 
But these things aren't unidentified anymore. Flares and Airplanes. When they were unidentified, they could have posed a hazard to air traffic. hence that's why they respond. The AF doesn't expect most rubes and fools to always readily be able to identify things up in the air, so generally there is an initial response until we go, "Oh, it's a U-2 that they saw. Silly Rubes." and then we dismiss it. You on the other hand seem to insist there is something there, or some grand conspiracy, when it's really nothing.

here, read this: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4337766
 
LarianLeQuella said:
But these things aren't unidentified anymore. Flares and Airplanes. When they were unidentified, they could have posed a hazard to air traffic. hence that's why they respond. The AF doesn't expect most rubes and fools to always readily be able to identify things up in the air, so generally there is an initial response until we go, "Oh, it's a U-2 that they saw. Silly Rubes." and then we dismiss it. You on the other hand seem to insist there is something there, or some grand conspiracy, when it's really nothing.

here, read this: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4337766
Click to expand...

Now I'm a conspiracy theorist,ok, I was the one who provided the name Lt. Col. Ed Jones. The name of one of the pilots is the single best evidence on this thread that explains the ufos. I found it, not Astro the pro, with his obvious intense research. I came here to see if anyone had better evidence and I admit I learned something. But the best evidence to me and all that witnessed the event would be a pilots name or log of a flight. But I found mostly people calling me dragon believer, and toothfairy stuff...whatever. If you're happy with the flares and tutors without logs and pilots, why did you come here?
 
chuck4842 said:
My original point was the ridiculous relation you made between dragons and the ufos.
Click to expand...

You made the claim that people saw an object that was many blocks across flying low over Phoenix. However, there is no evidence for such a craft existing other than a few isolated reports made that night. There is absolutely the same amount of evidence for this "craft" existing as there is for dragons. This was my point, which you appeared to miss.
 
Astrophotographer said:
You made the claim that people saw an object that was many blocks across flying low over Phoenix. However, there is no evidence for such a craft existing other than a few isolated reports made that night. There is absolutely the same amount of evidence for this "craft" existing as there is for dragons. This was my point, which you appeared to miss.
Click to expand...


Have you not just presented in this entire thread what this craft was? In fact didn't you research it and post on the internet a website in great detail what it was? Is it identified or not? Make up your mind.:jaw-dropp
 
chuck4842 said:
Now I'm a conspiracy theorist,ok, I was the one who provided the name Lt. Col. Ed Jones. The name of one of the pilots is the single best evidence on this thread that explains the ufos. I found it, not Astro the pro, with his obvious intense research.
Click to expand...

You found something on the internet. There is a significant difference between finding something important and just repeating what others already discovered. Had you done a follow-up and communicated with Jones, you might have something. As it is, Jones testimony supports the idea that flares produced the 10PM event. This is something for which you appeared to express doubt about in your early postings. Are you finally going to admit that the flares dropped by the Maryland ANG produced the 10PM videos or are we going to continue this dance?

As for the rest of my webpage, I admit that a lot of work was done by Tony Ortega and others. I try to give them plenty of credit. I designed the webpage back in November 1997 to put all the information together so people can read about what transpired and why it could have been flares and a formation of aircraft. Because of my obligations to the US Navy at the time (I was stationed in Hawaii aboard USS Honolulu - SSN 718 starting in the summer of 1997), I really could not perform much of a follow-up on the case. Most of it involved email exchanges between me and various witnesses (including Contry and Stanley). After I retired from the Navy in 2000, the trail was pretty cold and I was left picking up tidbits here and there, which I added.

As I stated before, if I did have a name of a pilot who was involved with the flight of aircraft that overflew Phoenix that night, I doubt it would sway you. You probably would call him a liar. If I produced some flight logs, you would probably proclaim they were falsified. You may even suggest the flight of five aircraft was a diversion to hide the presence of the huge object that really was present in the skies that night.

If you want to be skeptical of this theory, then I commend you. However, I would like you to direct the exact same skepticism towards those reporting a huge object that night flying low over Phoenix. When you do that, you may realize why I consider that five aircraft flying in formation over Phoenix that night is a far more likely scenario.
 
chuck4842 said:
Have you not just presented in this entire thread what this craft was? In fact didn't you research it and post on the internet a website in great detail what it was? Is it identified or not? Make up your mind.:jaw-dropp
Click to expand...

I believe I have stated over and over again, that this is the most likely scenario and not positively proven. From my webpage, I write:

From the above information, it is highly likely that the V-shaped formation was a formation of aircraft cruising over Phoenix at high altitude. Could it have been alien spaceships? I doubt it. Remember the lights did nothing unusual to indicate that they were alien in nature. Instead the lights followed Interstate 17 and 10 for most of their flight. Anyone flying at high altitude would have a lighted ribbon to follow for navigation purposes (Certainly, aliens who traveled light years would have a better navigation system than following illuminated highways!). I am not saying that my analysis is the absolute answer but when one looks at the basic facts involved, it is the most likely explanation.
 
You may be right, but I doubt it, since I gave you jones, should show my willingness to accept facts you didn't even know. So I gave you the gun in hopes you'd shoot me, not because I'm searching for real answers. All of the above we can only say may be true since you can't supply any of the above.
 
Astrophotographer said:
I believe I have stated over and over again, that this is the most likely scenario and not positively proven. From my webpage, I write:

From the above information, it is highly likely that the V-shaped formation was a formation of aircraft cruising over Phoenix at high altitude. Could it have been alien spaceships? I doubt it. Remember the lights did nothing unusual to indicate that they were alien in nature. Instead the lights followed Interstate 17 and 10 for most of their flight. Anyone flying at high altitude would have a lighted ribbon to follow for navigation purposes (Certainly, aliens who traveled light years would have a better navigation system than following illuminated highways!). I am not saying that my analysis is the absolute answer but when one looks at the basic facts involved, it is the most likely explanation.
Click to expand...



you also said the evidence it exist is the same as dragons and witches. Witches do exist by the way.
 
I think our differences are a distraction. A previous member said your patience is something to behold. I agreed. I don't believe in dragons or toothfairies I don't care that technically a woman that practices wicca is a witch. But I do think the flare explanation is narrowing down what it could've been and most likely was. I'm just trying to verify it like I did when you claimed on your website the AF did a replay but noone cared to show up and record it.
 
chuck4842 said:
I'm just trying to verify it like I did when you claimed on your website the AF did a replay but noone cared to show up and record it.
Click to expand...

Actually people did videotape it. Read the Maccabee report, which is where I got the information. He analyzed them and determined they, like the 3-13-97 lights, were consistent with aircraft dropping flares.
 
Astrophotographer said:
This comes out to be about 10 degrees. Something 20,000 feet away would be about 3500 feet across. This is assuming the witness made this measurement at the time in question. However, considering they were flying at night, I would not be surprised to see the pilots spread out a bit in their flight configuration. I have other witnesse statements who state the sky coverage was smaller. The video tape also shows a small FOV.



Prescott AZ - 7 white lights. Binoculars revealed that each light was two (one red and one green). 1000 ft above ground.
Paulden AZ - 4-5 red lights in a V-formation followed by a single light. No noise.
Chino Valley AZ - 5 white lights from NW. Lights went out as they passed over. Passed west of position. Lights moved towards NE of Prescott "Love field" airport.
Prescott Az - 5 yellow-white lights travel from NW to NE and then south. All five covered 1 degree of sky. Lights individual and not single structure.
Tempe Az - 5 red/orange lights, No single object, Lights were separate objects.
Just a few samples from the NUFORC database. Missing are the video tape evidence, Rich Contry's sighting, John Middleton/Larry Campbell, and Rich Stanley, which all directly stated aircraft were involved. I also omitted Mike Fortson's statement about the lights passing in front of the moon and the moon changed color and appeared wavy (like the fumes of a gas can).



Really? Is it any more ridiculous than a mile-wide/blocks-wide aircraft that flies low over Phoenix Arizona and a majority of the population does not notice? The evidence for such craft is just as great as the evidence for dragons and witches. It is only ridiculous because you believe in one and not the other. BTW, the military did not investigate this event. The media investigates ghosts. Is that any different than dragons and witches? BTW, the media really did not investigate either. They just reported what people stated. I guess the Discovery channel and Tony Ortega actually investigated but most of the media outlets in Arizona just did some sensationalizing of the event.
Click to expand...


What?! These testimonies aren't what I've been reading. Unless you can provide reliable references I must quote Stalin or somebody...your efforts are ruthless, so since you most likely can't prove testimonies by typing, lets try to stick to the specs of aircraft and their capabilities of the time. I'm sure you told me about the dispensers, but I can't verify them either,what about logs. Why can't Bienz look up logs. Names on logs, type of aircraft in her "spare time" since she was aggravated enough to do it once, without much to say.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom