Hamas & Israel Cease-Fire. Hamas Violates cease-fire.

[Ragnarok]

I know it would take some doing to make Hamas look any worse than they are, but HOW do we know it is Hamas every time? How difficult would it be for their opponents, or anyone else who doesn't want peace to fire rockets pretending to be Hamas? As it is not a conventional war, I doubt very much that the Hamas fellas all wear little badges, or easily designated clothing.

Doesn't the real blame for all this mayhem lie with a society that allows its military and arms dealers to get away with shoddy book-keeping?

 

[gtc]

Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN. That is quite simple. If the UN has no legitimacy neither does the state of Israel.

Would that apply to an independent Scotland? Would Scotland only have the right to its independence if the UN agreed?

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292903870&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Surprise.

 

[Skeptic]

Nope. Israel's right to exist rests on a decision of the UN.

No it doesn't. The UN *recognized* the Jews' right for a state -- a decision it obviously deeply regrets -- but it no more *gave* the Jews that right than anyone else did.

In any case, the UN in 1947 is one thing, the UN in 2009 quite another. Ever since the cold war got into gear, in the early 50s at the latest, the UN was hijacked by the dictatorships and became a Israel-bashing debating club.

 

[Skeptic]

Look at the obvious double standard: the Jews' sole right to a state is a UN deicision... but the Palestinians have an inalianable right to a state, UN decision or not.

(And yes, I know the UN decision didn't merely "decide to create Israel", and in fact called for two states, a decision nullified by the Arab world's instant attack on Israel with the goal of throwing the Jews into the sea. But I digress.)

 

[Fiona]

Would that apply to an independent Scotland? Would Scotland only have the right to its independence if the UN agreed?

If the proposed independent scotland was to be established by taking half of denmark, then yes, I think so

 

[ddt]

B'tselem is investigating the shooting of a Palestinian farmer on Sunday.

As a matter of policy, B'Tselem investigates every death in the conflict.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

As a matter of policy, B'Tselem investigates every death in the conflict.

Yes, that's their job, which they should continue diligently. I should have been more clear in that I was questioning the rationale of this thread. There are two unilateral announcements (each with different conditions) and there's at least one Palestinians fraction announcing it will decide for itself when to stop firing rockets.

 

[gtc]

If the proposed independent scotland was to be established by taking half of denmark, then yes, I think so

Its going to take x per cent of the UK and no one is proposing to let England, Wales and NI vote in any referendum.

 

[yairhol]

Starting Over so that there are no disagreements

Hamas violates Cease-Fire. Incidents # 1 & 2 (01.20.09):

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3659231,00.html

Gunmen fire at IDF troops in 2 incidents


Force fired on near Gaza border, south of Kissufim crossing; 40 minutes later, gunmen shoot at another Israeli force in central Strip. No injuries reported. Meanwhile, army begins pulling out last forces from Strip. Reservists released, regular brigades remain in bases near Gaza, prepared for any possible scenario

 

[yairhol]

Hamas violation #3:

IDF: Palestinians fired 8 mortar shells Tuesday

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3659473,00.html

 

[Skeptic]

Yairhol, how many times can we say this?

These folks CLAIM they are "outraged" by Hamas' random rocketing of Israeli civilians, ceasefire violations, etc. but their actions prove they just don't care.

 

[dudalb]

Yairhol, how many times can we say this?

These folks CLAIM they are "outraged" by Hamas' random rocketing of Israeli civilians, ceasefire violations, etc. but their actions prove they just don't care.

Exactly. I have been maintaining for some time that a number of people here really want Israel destroyed, but don't have the guts to say so.
I doubt that Israel's action in the Gaza was the right move to make, but I can understand why they did it.
And I also maintain that there is no chance in hell of a peace deal as long as Hamas stays in power..despite wishful thinking to the contrary.

 

[a_unique_person]

Exactly. I have been maintaining for some time that a number of people here really want Israel destroyed, but don't have the guts to say so.

Who would they be? Do you have any evidence or are you psychic?

 

[FireGarden]

I doubt that Israel's action in the Gaza was the right move to make, but I can understand why they did it.

We all understand why. And you "doubt" it was the right move. You just don't have the guts to call a spade a spade: what Israel engaged in was a massive act of terror.

See: Like you, I can be a mind-reader.

 

[FireGarden]

Yairhol, how many times can we say this?

These folks CLAIM they are "outraged" by Hamas' random rocketing of Israeli civilians, ceasefire violations, etc. but their actions prove they just don't care.

I'll state very clearly that my outrage at what Israel has done far, far outstrips my outrage at what Hamas has done. I regard Israel as the more dangerous terrorist in the region.

If what Hamas has done requires a single sentence in condemnation, then what Israel has done requires a thousand. That is why I don't take time out of my day to catalogue every single crime that Hamas commits.

Have you even seen one single picture of what has happened in Gaza?

 

[yairhol]

I'll state very clearly that my outrage at what Israel has done far, far outstrips my outrage at what Hamas has done. I regard Israel as the more dangerous terrorist in the region.

If what Hamas has done requires a single sentence in condemnation, then what Israel has done requires a thousand. That is why I don't take time out of my day to catalogue every single crime that Hamas commits.

Have you even seen one single picture of what has happened in Gaza?

We like terrorists don't we? Yes, yes we do.
Amazing how an American person can rude for the terrorists after 9/11.

America, I'm sure has killed some innocent people in Afghanistan while persuing Bin-Laden. It's just the way war is against terrorists. Is America considered a terrorist nation by your standards?

Yes we have seen pictures of what Gaza looks like now.
More and more evidence is pouring in of how terrorists used civilian buildings for shooting rockets and mortars at Israeli towns and villages. Then people like you say what evil Israel has done to those poor civilians. I mean come on, Israel destroyed their houses. How terrible is that?

Almost 3000 rockets and mortars were fired by the terrorists at Israel in 2008 alone and you claim that Israel should have not went on a military operation to stop it?

 

[yairhol]

That is why I don't take time out of my day to catalogue every single crime that Hamas commits.

If you try to catalogue every single crime that Hamas commits you'll need a 3000+ post thread for 2008 alone.
Let's not count all the crimes by Hamas but let's do count the one operation Israel does to stop the 3000+ crimes by Hamas.

a balanced and logical view.

 

[The Fool]

We like terrorists don't we? Yes, yes we do.
Amazing how an American person can rude for the terrorists after 9/11.

America, I'm sure has killed some innocent people in Afghanistan while persuing Bin-Laden. It's just the way war is against terrorists. Is America considered a terrorist nation by your standards?

Yes we have seen pictures of what Gaza looks like now.
More and more evidence is pouring in of how terrorists used civilian buildings for shooting rockets and mortars at Israeli towns and villages. Then people like you say what evil Israel has done to those poor civilians. I mean come on, Israel destroyed their houses. How terrible is that?

Almost 3000 rockets and mortars were fired by the terrorists at Israel in 2008 alone and you claim that Israel should have not went on a military operation to stop it?

Just curious but is there any number of Dead Palestinians you would call too violent a reaction? Any number come to mind?

 

[yairhol]

Just curious but is there any number of Dead Palestinians you would call too violent a reaction? Any number come to mind?

I don't look at human lives in numbers. Not on the Israeli side and not on the Palestinian.
The military operation was a must in Israel's view in order to stop the almost 3000 rockets/mortars a year shot on southern Israeli civilians by the terrorists. There is no possible way of fighting gureilla terrorists hiding in civilian population, firing from within crowds of people and hiding their arsenals in civilian families' kitchens, without civilians getting hurt. It's a great tragedy that Palestinian civilians get hurt but we must remember that it's a situation in which the Hamas is forcing on its own people. The Hamas don't regard their people's lives, not Israel. The Hamas are shooting from schools, children's rooms, mosques etc.
There have been plenty of evidence that Israel is doing all it can to avoid hurting innocent Palestinian lives. And again, almost 3000 rockets/mortars are fired at Israeli civilians a year. I can't imagine a government in the world that would not do something similar to what Israel had done.