Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.
- Thread starter kitakaze
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kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
You can tell me what reason I have to doubt what the Kwakwaka'wakw have said about the bukwus, the "Chief of the Ghosts" and magnate of drowned souls, and turn it into Bigfoot. Also you can start answering some questions I asked in post #1002.
Let me tell you something, makaya, that you as a First Nations person should really not have to think about too much. For many many tribes and nations who face cultural extinction and the loss of so much wisdom in their oral histories and languages, the internet is the most invaluable tool they have in preserving the knowledge of their peoples. Certainly much of what there is to know is not to be found there. Certainly much is forever lost. But I'll tell you something right now, I make great effort to get the facts, to go to the source of the information, and find out what is real and what has been spun by people with an agenda. Whenever I have had the opportunity I have examined firsthand the evidence in question.
What I do not do is rely on Bigfoot enthusiast websites for my facts and to tell me what indigenous peoples know or don't know about Bigfoot. I don't go to Bobbie Short's site or other places that have hodge-podge lists of names that we are just supposed to accept are Bigfoot without question. For someone who says he wants to learn, I see precious little sign that you have any intention of doing so.
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kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Complete and total flip-flop. You have continuously evaded addressing my questioning you on why you originally were saying the PNW natives see Bigfoot as a totally normal animal without any supernatural element.
Kitz, under those powers, ask the natives. Then you will see the truth.
The internet is mostly bs for both sides. I feel comfortable with the knowledge of my hupas. They have taught me how to live my life, and to realize that our big hairy brother will always be their with us. To me, he is real.
The internet is mostly bs for both sides. I feel comfortable with the knowledge of my hupas. They have taught me how to live my life, and to realize that our big hairy brother will always be their with us. To me, he is real.
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
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Makaya, you go ask some natives. But NOT natives on bigfoot sites. Not natives that are already bigfoot proponents. Ask native historians, ask native anthropologists. Don't go spouting off things that you call 'facts' about native American culture which are actually perversions by people who care nothing for tradition.
Yes, many stories give normal animals magical powers. Many stories make up magical creatures that have no real life equivalent. It doesn't matter that some stories make deer 'talk' (and if you don't understand figurative language, please take English 101) to man, but not every story does.
Do you have any stories where man sees bigfoot and it isn't magical? Any at all?
I'm sorry, but the continued perversion of native American stories is something that gets to me. Revisionist history gets to me.
Yes, many stories give normal animals magical powers. Many stories make up magical creatures that have no real life equivalent. It doesn't matter that some stories make deer 'talk' (and if you don't understand figurative language, please take English 101) to man, but not every story does.
Do you have any stories where man sees bigfoot and it isn't magical? Any at all?
I'm sorry, but the continued perversion of native American stories is something that gets to me. Revisionist history gets to me.
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Your strawman tactics are getting worse. Please see my explanation on strawmen in the hominids thread.
Mayaka, I want you to right now put your hands on the keyboard and point out (preferably with a link) one single instance that I am relying on CSICOP for my research. If you can not do so, I want you to explain to us why you are telling people that I rely on CSICOP. I want to know exactly the nature of the thought process that made you produce that remark.
On top of that, you state that Bobbie Short's Bigfoot Encounters website is neutral compared to the BFRO. This is not evidence of of non-bias in any way, shape, or form. Bigfoot Encounter is a Bigfoot enthusiast website as is the BFRO's site. It is made for and by people who are invested in advocating the existence of Bigfoot. By this very fact when one is attempting to ensure quality in one's research, it is quite undesirable to look to a Bigfoot enthusiast website for non-biased factual information.
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
This point can't be stressed enough. NA indigenous peoples were no less imaginative than the Greeks, Norse, or Japanese. We've seen plenty of examples of some fantastical beings in this thread. A while ago mayaka asked me what my favourite myth had been. Off the top of my head in this thread the entity we dubbed Mr. Baxbax proposed by MOTS as a Bigfoot correlary was one of my favourites. Here's an examination by EHocking on page #4 of what Mr. Baxbax did and did not share in common with Bigfoot:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3421700#post3421700
It's quite interesting and Mr. Baxbax was pretty cool.
As it does for me and many others. This is a shameless plug but it is for that reason that this thread is featured on the BS Historian website.
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Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Because there are no non-human descendants of apes in North America, and never have been .
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
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Why can't humans?
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
He did say all tribes, let's not forget.
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Again you evaded addressing my questioning you on why you originally were saying the PNW natives see Bigfoot as a totally normal animal without any supernatural element. Also, I'm asking a native (you) and I'm not getting much in the way of truth or anything.
Are you saying my research is BS? Are you saying that the information that I have researched that was put on the internet by various native groups in order to preserve traditional knowledge and educate others about their cultures is BS?
That's nice. That should mean that you would have no problem citing a traditional Hupa tale of Bigfoot. I've asked you repeatedly for this and been ignored every time.
Really?:
Again you evaded addressing my questioning you on why you originally were saying the PNW natives see Bigfoot as a totally normal animal without any supernatural element. Also, I'm asking a native (you) and I'm not getting much in the way of truth or anything.
Are you saying my research is BS? Are you saying that the information that I have researched that was put on the internet by various native groups in order to preserve traditional knowledge and educate others about their cultures is BS?
That's nice. That should mean that you would have no problem citing a traditional Hupa tale of Bigfoot. I've asked you repeatedly for this and been ignored every time.
Really?:
http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/highpine.htm
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
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"Bigfoot is seen more as a sort of supernatural or spirit being, whose appearance to humans is always meant to convey some kind of message."
Hmmmmm, even the article on that bigfoot website disagrees with you.
EDIT: That isn't my only criticism of that article, but I'm not taking the time this second to go through all of them. Besides, kitakaze can do it better anyway.
Hmmmmm, even the article on that bigfoot website disagrees with you.
EDIT: That isn't my only criticism of that article, but I'm not taking the time this second to go through all of them. Besides, kitakaze can do it better anyway.
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kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
You can't honestly think we haven't already discussed this. Also, what kind of sincere response is that to any of the points and questions raised in my post? It doesn't seem like you are ready for the kind of debate we are having.
Also I am waiting for you to cite the post where I have been relying on CSICOP for my research regarding this thread and an explanation why you said so if you can't.
No, kitz, please rebute her statement
But, special being as he is, I have never heard anyone from a Northwestern tribe suggest that Bigfoot is anything other than a physical being, living in the same physical dimensions as humans and other animals. He eats, he sleeps, he poops, he cares for his family members. However, among many Indians elsewhere in North America — as widely separated at the Hopi, the Sioux, the Iroquois, and the Northern Athabascan — Bigfoot is seen more as a sort of supernatural or spirit being, whose appearance to humans is always meant to convey some kind of message.
But, special being as he is, I have never heard anyone from a Northwestern tribe suggest that Bigfoot is anything other than a physical being, living in the same physical dimensions as humans and other animals. He eats, he sleeps, he poops, he cares for his family members. However, among many Indians elsewhere in North America — as widely separated at the Hopi, the Sioux, the Iroquois, and the Northern Athabascan — Bigfoot is seen more as a sort of supernatural or spirit being, whose appearance to humans is always meant to convey some kind of message.
Tyr, did you miss:
But, special being as he is, I have never heard anyone from a Northwestern tribe suggest that Bigfoot is anything other than a physical being, living in the same physical dimensions as humans and other animals. He eats, he sleeps, he poops, he cares for his family members.
But, special being as he is, I have never heard anyone from a Northwestern tribe suggest that Bigfoot is anything other than a physical being, living in the same physical dimensions as humans and other animals. He eats, he sleeps, he poops, he cares for his family members.