Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

[kitakaze]

Kitz, i presented names for each one. Did you bother to read?

"hairy one", skookum, sasquatch, Kecleh-Kudleh, Yi' dyi'tay, Xi'lgo, Bukwas, Chiye tanka, Neginla eh, Wsinkhoalican?

The ones I have bolded have been addressed in this thread. Please tell me about the others. I have given you links to my research on Oh-Mah and bukwus. Did you bother to read? I have asked you important straight forward questions in an effort to establish what you know and what the Hupa know. Did you bother to answer?

 

[kitakaze]

Kitz, are you aware that natives also view normal wildlife as supernatural and spirits?

Now you are moving the goalposts. You just earlier said that the PNW natives regarded Bigfoot as only a normal animal. Indigenous cultures of North America have tales that often anthropomorphize animals as every other culture on Earth does.Yes or no, did I or did I not show factual sourced information that points to tradtional narratives of the Oh-mah and bukwus being supernatural figures? Were you or were not correct in saying that they were not supernatural?

 

[RayG]

Kitz, before i do that, check this out

http://web.ncf.ca/bz050/HomePage.bfna.html

From that link:

"The existence of Bigfoot is taken for granted throughout Native North America, and so are his powerful psychic abilities."

And I should believe this, why?

Wild Man of the Woods, "Tall Burnt Hair, Night People", Big Elder Brother" Bushman, Hairy Savage,

Sorry, Indigenous people don't hold a patent on boogy men.

Bukwas:

Bukwas, or wild man of the woods, is a significant supernatural spirit being of the Kwaglulth Nation and casts a haunting figure in their great annual winter dance. He is linked with the underworld of the dead, and with ghosts -- especially the spirits of the drowned, who hover near him. Mysterious and illusive, he lurks nears the edge of the dark forest in which he lives, offering food to lost humans, luring them to become spirits in his shadowy underworld.

Sorry, I ain't into psychics, boogy men, ghosts, or spirits, and I'm not impressed with superstitions, anecdotes, tall tales, myths, or legends.

Got bigfoot?

RayG

 

[tyr_13]

Limitations? So im assuming you havent spoke with ALL of the tribes. Maybe if you did, the view would change dramatically. Every native american tribe has lore of a "large, hairy man"

The Seneca do not. Note the period at the end of that sentence.

Just because some members of some tribes say something does not mean this is true of the tribe. People make stuff up, are mistaken, and just don't know some things all the time.

If one of my Japanese friends started talking about how all Japanese know the power of removing toxins through one's feet, and that it is a well established legend in Japan going back thousands of years, I wouldn't just believe them.

 

[kitakaze]

Just because some members of some tribes say something does not mean this is true of the tribe. People make stuff up, are mistaken, and just don't know some things all the time.

Like this:

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/sbs/hupa.htm

If one of my Japanese friends started talking about how all Japanese know the power of removing toxins through one's feet, and that it is a well established legend in Japan going back thousands of years, I wouldn't just believe them.

One thing I'm not a big fan of is kenko. Kenko is no fun. You might as well stick some pebbles in your shoes and walk around with tears in your eyes and a clenched face:

http://www.jlifeinternational.com/kenko/SA032.html

 

[tyr_13]

Actually the only problem I've had with kenko, besides the stupid pressure points claim, is that I can't find them in my size. Of course I'm a barefoot country boy, so my feet are pretty messed up already.

Although I still prefer simple Old Navy flip-flops, straw sandals, and anything else that fits freakishly wide feet.

Which brings me back to bigfoot. Cultures are of course, changeable and stories evolve. The Japanese Oni for example and the western satans. It is hardly new to recast or 'reboot' a story to fit changing times. Hell, look at vampires. Anyone claiming the characters of Twighlight are good representations of the vampire mythos has no clue on the history of vampire legend at all. Native Americans are no immune to this.

 

[kitakaze]

Don't forget Japan has a somewhat diminutive Bigfoot too - Hibagon or hinagon.

 

[tyr_13]

Yeah, but I thought it was supposed to be only five feet tall and look like a gorilla with white hands and feet.

 

[kitakaze]

I've posted lots about hibagon. I'd go into more but I don't want this thread to get too redundant. Here's a good one from page #8:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3586974#post3586974

 

[tyr_13]

Someone actually thought that the oni were possible hibagon candidates? Wow...just wow. I'll have to reread this thread if only for the laughs.

 

[kitakaze]

Are you aware that the names are things as "hairy one", skookum, sasquatch, Kecleh-Kudleh, Yi' dyi'tay, Xi'lgo, Bukwas, Chiye tanka, Neginla eh, Wsinkhoalican?

I am a Gatling Gun. Time to mow.

Kecleh-Kudleh - Cherokee "hairy savage"

Apparently it means "hairy savage" and is pronounced "chickly cuddly." Searching it only produces the usual Bigfoot sources. One source states that kudleh either means "Indian" "man" or "savage." Could be in reference to encounters with Europeans or who knows, maybe even another people as represented by the remains of Kennewick Man. The Cherokee do not have Bigfoot. They do strike me as the kind of people that would have fancied making a Bigfoot hat if they ever got their hands on one.

http://www.rain.org/campinternet/bigfoot/bigfoot-folklore.html

Here's a comprehensive Cherokee online dictionary:

http://www.wehali.com/tsalagi/

No Bigfoot in there.

Yi' dyi'tay - Tillamook. Qe'ku was a wild woman and an Yi' dyi'tay was a wild man. Covered here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3723725#post3723725

Xi'lgo - Tillamook "Truly Wild Woman"

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/biology/orang-pendek.htm

Further reading in Coyote Was Going There: Indian Literature of the Oregon Country Compiled and edited by Jarold Ramsey. Tale is called:

Xi'lgo and the Brother and Sister Who Married Each Other (Tillamook)

http://www.washington.edu/uwpress/search/books/RAMCOP.html

Xi'lgo was a truly wild woman. I love truly wild women but she sounded like she was into some freaky stuff that ain't my scene. Giggity giggity.

Chiye tanka - Sioux "Great Elder Brother"

"The Lakota, or western Sioux, call Bigfoot Chiye-tanka (Chiha-tanka in Dakota or eastern Sioux); "chiye" means "elder brother" and "tanka" means "great" or "big". In English, though, the Sioux usually call him "the big man". In his book "The spirit of Crazy Horse," (Viking, 1980), a non-fiction account of the events dramatized by the excellent recent movie "Thunderheart", author Peter Mathiessen recorded some comments about Bigfoot made by traditional Sioux people and some members of other Indian nations. Joe Flying By, a Hunkpapa Lakota, told Mathiessen, "I think the Big Man is a kind of husband of Unk-ksa, the earth, who is wise in the way of anything with its own natural wisdom. Sometimes we say that this One is a kind of reptile from the ancient times who can take a big hairy form; I also think he can change into a coyote. Some of the people who saw him did not respect what they were seeing, and they are already gone."

"There is your Big man standing there, ever waiting, ever present, like the coming of a new day," Oglala Lakota Medicine Man Pete Catches told Mathiessen. "He is both spirit and real being, but he can also glide through the forest, like a moose with big antlers, as though the trees weren't there... I know him as my brother... I want him to touch me, just a touch, a blessing, something I could bring home to my sons and grandchildren, that I was there, that I approached him, and he touched me."

Ray Owen, son of a Dakota spiritual leader from Prairie Island Reservation in Minnesota, told a reporter from (the) Red Wing (Minnesota) Republican Eagle, "They exist in another dimension from us, but can appear in this dimension whenever they have a reason to. See, it's like there are many levels, many dimensions. When our time in this one is finished, we move on to the next, but the Big Man can go between. The Big Man comes from God. He's our big brother, kind of looks out for us. Two years ago, we were going downhill, really self-destructive. We needed a sign to put us back on track, and that's why the Big Man appeared".

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/legends/highpine.htm

Just a normal animal and not supernatural?

Neginla-eh - Alutiiq and Yukon “Man of the deep woods."

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/biology/orang-pendek.htm

And? That's it?

Wsinkhoalican - Lenni Lenape "The Game Keeper"

Harrington in Dikon Among the Lenape (Indians of New Jersey)
Mee sing, Mesingw, Mee-sing-haw-lee-kun, Misinghalikun, and Wsinkhoalican are all various recorded forms of the Lenni Lenape word translated as meaning "The Mask Being" or "Living Solid Face." This Manitou or Spirit Being, also called "The Game Keeper," lived in the woods, guardian of the deer and all game animals. This concept also appears among the Montagnais-Naskapi of Labrador in the form of Caribou-Man , who in turn is very similar to the antlered Celtic Spirit Cerranos.
The word can also mean Mesingw's human impersonator. In a well researched fictional work called The Indians of New Jersey: Dikon Among the Lenape: Dr. M.R. Harrington (as the captive English boy who narrates the story) writes:
"...I was really enjoying the fun, when I heard a queer noise behind me, a sort of rattling and a sound like a horse neighing. I looked and nearly died from fright. There stood a creature as big as a man, but covered with hair; it had a great moonlike face, half red and half black, and it carried a staff and something that made a rattling noise. It saw me looking and jumped straight up in the air; then it made a dive for me.

"That terrible creature chased me all over the village, making great leaps and bounds and jumping over everything that came in the way. I escaped only by pushing out into the river in a canoe. Even then I thought for a moment it would follow me there, but it finally turned back toward the Big House, whinnying and rattling. Not until next spring did I learn that it was a man wearing a mask and a bearskin suit. He always appears at the Gamwing, representing a spirit called Mee-sing-haw-lee-kun, supposed to be the guardian of the deer and all other game animals..."

http://wakinguponturtleisland.blogspot.com/2006/09/mesingwe-hunter-spirit.html

That's not Bigfoot.

I'm pretty sure makaya should stop relying on bigfootencounters for Bigfoot facts.

 

[JcR]

Well for some reason this popped into my head.
And why didn't Gordon Lightfoot write a song about Bigfoot ?
He had written a song about a sinking ship.

 

[Correa Neto]

Several Native American cultures have myths about trickster characters with supernatural skills. Actually they are found in cultures all around the world. Does it means that trickster with supernatural skills are real?

 

[makaya325]

Kitz, are you AWARE that tribes give magical abilities to KNOWN animals?

 

[kitakaze]

Kitz, are you AWARE that tribes give magical abilities to KNOWN animals?

Makaya, are you aware that I answered the question in post #1022? Are you also aware that there are a number of simple questions awaiting your reply?

Unfortunately there isn't any good reason to think the names I researched are Bigfoot.

 

[makaya325]

Kitz, no you did not respond to it. Because you didnt answer my response about normal wildlife having magical powers. How do you respond to that.

Yes, i will answer your question after mine are satisfied.

 

[tyr_13]

Questions.

 

[kitakaze]

Kitz, no you did not respond to it. Because you didnt answer my response about normal wildlife having magical powers. How do you respond to that.

Yes, i will answer your question after mine are satisfied.

Please don't play games with me. First you need to get a basic handle on forum etiquette. I have asked you a number of questions and made repeated requests for you to address them. I did that before your question about animals with supernatural features. Thus it should be me telling you that you will get your answer once my questions have been satisfied so please don't play the impudent youth.

Second you haven't addressed a basic problem about your question. You said before the PNW natives saw Bigfoot only as a normal animal and in no way supernatural. I went and showed that was not the case at all with the supposed correlaries for Bigfoot. Instead of admitting that point you altered your arguemnt to a completely different line of logic stating that natives make many animals supernatural. This is not a sincere and honest debate tactic. It is called "moving the goal posts." I have pointed out that all cultures on Earth anthropomorphize (imbue human characteristics) animals which they do to many other things as well. Wolves or ravens or squirrels might speak and use magic and so might the sun and the moon and the wind. This was never part of your argument stating that PNW natives see Bigfoot only as normal animal.

I have shown you in the examples you have given me that it is quite a stretch to read a population of bipedal non-human apes into them. I have done this by researching the facts, the traditional tales told, and the ways in which Bigfoot enthusiasts have distorted them. Once again, yes or no, did I or did I not show factual sourced information that points to tradtional narratives of the Oh-mah and bukwus being supernatural figures? Were you or were not correct in saying that they were not supernatural?

 

[makaya325]

Kitz, what do you want me to tell you about bukwas? Dont you know it all?

I dont get how either a believer or skeptic using information from the internet and not from the real life will get any conclusion

 

[makaya325]

So, natives have bears with magical powers, and so does every other animal. Sasquatch also has amazing powers, underneath the magical powers, there is a root of a myth in reality.