Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[DOC]

I did, but from your posts on the subject you clearly didn't understand any of the actual physics behind it.

So you want (I would estimate) 99.9 percent of the population who do not understand the physics behind the theory that all the physical material (and space) of 100 billion galaxies came from something smaller than one atom to "have faith" that the theory is correct and that all this happened in just some freak random occurrence.

 

[DOC]

So, you're telling me that God helped Holyfield beat the living snot out of Tyson...

Maybe God didn't like that picture of the atheist Moa tattooed on Tyson's chest.

Just a thought.

 

[Mashuna]

Maybe God didn't like that picture of the atheist Moa tattooed on Tyson's chest.

So he's a petty and spiteful God, who won't save children from cancer but will help Holyfield win a boxing match. Through disqualification, after having part of his ear bitten off.

That's a really weird God.

 

[Mashuna]

So you want (I would estimate) 99.9 percent of the population who do not understand the physics behind the theory that all the physical material (and space) of 100 billion galaxies came from something smaller than one atom to "have faith" that the theory is correct and that all this happened in just some freak random occurrence.

Doc, just because you didn't listen in school, don't try to make out that everyone else is as ignorant.

 

[DOC]

So he's a petty and spiteful God, who won't save children from cancer but will help Holyfield win a boxing match. Through disqualification, after having part of his ear bitten off.

The cancer could be in someway related to the sin of humans. You know, chemicals in the environment, chemicals in the food etc. Cancer is rare in some other countries, and was also rare in the pre-industrial age.

 

[DOC]

Doc, just because you didn't listen in school, don't try to make out that everyone else is as ignorant.

Well then why don't you explain the physics behind the theory that all the physical material (and space) in the universe came from something smaller than one atom and educate me.

 

[Akhenaten]

Well then why don't you explain the physics behind the theory that all the physical material (and space) in the universe came from something smaller than one atom and educate me.

Bang!

 

[joobz]

The cancer could be in someway related to the sin of humans. You know, chemicals in the environment, chemicals in the food etc.

So God punishs 7 years old because of the sin of others, but will take time out to help a boxer beat another boxer?

Do you not see how completely crazy that is?

Cancer is rare in some other countries, and was also rare in the pre-industrial age.

source?

 

[Hokulele]

Well then why don't you explain the physics behind the theory that all the physical material (and space) in the universe came from something smaller than one atom and educate me.

People on this forum have tried repeatedly to educate you, and you seem to want to have nothing to do with it. Volatile even offered to send you a book on the physics written for a lay audience to you for free, and you refused. Why on earth would Mashuna waste his time on something you have already stated you will not learn?

 

[This Guy]

The cancer could be in someway related to the sin of humans. You know, chemicals in the environment, chemicals in the food etc. Cancer is rare in some other countries, and was also rare in the pre-industrial age.

I'd also like to see some evidence on this.

As for the second part (cancer was rare in the pre-industrial age) I would guess that it isn't so much that there was less cancer, but people died younger from other things (lower life expectancy). Had they lived, on average, as long as we do, on average, I suspect the cancer rates would be pretty similar.

But that's just a guess.

ETA: Well, there are some interesting differences in cancer rates, around the world.

Haven't found any information on cancer rates through the years. I will add that today we have a much better array of detection tools, and a much better understanding of the various types of cancer. I suspect that many deaths, say 100 years ago, that might have been from cancer were not diagnosed as cancer deaths. I'm not sure we could even compare cancer deaths from too long ago, to today, and get any meaningful data. Almost be like apples and oranges I would think.

 

[calebprime]

Well Evander Holyfield is big on the verse "I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me". I would say there is power in those words because they helped him defeat Mike Tyson twice. The second time was after he had a doctor treated heart condition. He claimed he was healed of his heart condition at a Benny Hilnn crusade. He then went on to defeat Tyson a second time.

Beating Mike Tyson after having being diagnosed with a heart condition -- well there is some kind of power going on there.

God gave Holyfield a huge height and reach advantage.

Tyson's arms were too short to box with God.

God hasn't spared Holyfield's brain, though:

"Here is a man seriously deluded by ambition. Emanuel Steward, one of his former trainers, says: "I have never met anyone with an ego like his. It drives him on." His present trainer, Ronnie Shields, says telling Holyfield he shouldn't fight "is like telling Noah he's crazy to build an ark". There are disturbing portents of incipient brain damage – Holyfield already mumbles and his reflexes are suspiciously slow."

The slurring, the flat prosody--that's from getting hit too much.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...wis-fears-its-one-battle-too-many-394399.html

 

[joobz]

I'd also like to see some evidence on this.

As for the second part (cancer was rare in the pre-industrial age) I would guess that it isn't so much that there was less cancer, but people died younger from other things (lower life expectancy). Had they lived, on average, as long as we do, on average, I suspect the cancer rates would be pretty similar.

But that's just a guess.

Life expectancies are definitely one issue. You can't die of cancer in your 60s when you die of cholera in your 20s.

Cancer has been described since egyptian times. People knew and saw tumors. Any notion that cancer was a rarity is simply false.

People who did grow old, died of "old age". How many cases of "old age" were in fact a cancer?

 

[cj.23]

cj,

If it was clear that virgin was meant, why not use the word specifically for virgin in Hebrew?

I think young girl was meant, but I defnitely understand why the translator chose the Greek word for virgin, since that carries the idea of purity with it, and that is the point of that particular passage.

Yes, it looks like a probable match to me - though innocence can be conveyed by other words than parthenos. What is interesting is that IF anyone regarded this as somehow prophetic before Jesus, then yes it would be read by a Greek as "virgin" - with the sexually untouched suggestion - but now I'm fuzzled. Because

i) there was no prophetic belief, and Matthew and Luke's sources made it up, but it happened to fit the Isaiah passage
ii) there was a prophetic belief, and and Matthew and Luke's sources made it up, so it fits the Isaiah passage
iii) there was no prophetic belief, and Matthew and Luke's sources were accurate accounts of a real event, but it fits the Isaiah passage
iv) iii) there was no prophetic belief, and Matthew and Luke's sources were accurate accounts of a real event, but it fits the Isaiah passage

The problem is I am not aware of ANY tradition associating this Isaiah passage with the Messianic prophecies before Christianity? Anyone help here? Yet clearly it was regarded as a convincing argument to the 1st century Jews, which at least implies there was something rather odd about Jesus birth - or noone left who knew anything about his childhood...

cj x

cj x

 

[six7s]

As for the second part (cancer was rare in the pre-industrial age) I would guess that it isn't so much that there was less cancer, but people died younger from other things (lower life expectancy).

And/or died with less than accurate records...

According to my mother, the death certificates for three of her great-grandparents (who all died around 75 years ago) state something along the lines of 'Cause of Death: Consumption'

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Yes, it looks like a probable match to me - though innocence can be conveyed by other words than parthenos. What is interesting is that IF anyone regarded this as somehow prophetic before Jesus, then yes it would be read by a Greek as "virgin" - with the sexually untouched suggestion - but now I'm fuzzled. Because

i) there was no prophetic belief, and Matthew and Luke's sources made it up, but it happened to fit the Isaiah passage
ii) there was a prophetic belief, and and Matthew and Luke's sources made it up, so it fits the Isaiah passage
iii) there was no prophetic belief, and Matthew and Luke's sources were accurate accounts of a real event, but it fits the Isaiah passage
iv) iii) there was no prophetic belief, and Matthew and Luke's sources were accurate accounts of a real event, but it fits the Isaiah passage

The problem is I am not aware of ANY tradition associating this Isaiah passage with the Messianic prophecies before Christianity? Anyone help here? Yet clearly it was regarded as a convincing argument to the 1st century Jews, which at least implies there was something rather odd about Jesus birth - or noone left who knew anything about his childhood...

cj x

cj x

First, I hope you are feeling better. Posting again, that's a good sign.

There are other explanations. I am in the minority thinking that Luke had Matthew to look at, but I think Luke had Matthew as one of his sources (there are minor arguments for this, nothing knock-down), which would explain why both have a virgin birth narrative. It is clear, though, that the birth narratives are very different and serve different theological purposes.

There were many Moses stroies and Midrash certainly has several commentaries about Moses' father and the decisions being made when Pharaoh was killing the male children in Egypt -- should they divorce, but Moses' father decided not to do so, which is encoded in Joseph deciding not to divorce Mary, etc. Not to mention all the obvious references to Moses' birth and subsequent life, etc, etc.

There needn't have been anything unusual about Jesus' birth for the stories to form once it was acknowledged that something miraculous had happened to him, and resurrection is generally thought to qualify. If God had chosen him, it seems logical for someone to ask the question -- didn't God know all along that he was going to choose Jesus, so what about his birth and childhood? There were several ready models to use with divine birth being one obvious one -- and what better way to prove it was divine but to have it occur to a virgin...............

Sorry, family calls. I'll try to get back to it tomorrow.

I really hope you are feeling better. Drink plenty of fluids.

 

[cj.23]

First, I hope you are feeling better. Posting again, that's a good sign.

.....

I really hope you are feeling better. Drink plenty of fluids.

I did wonder if my posting days were over when it was at its worst. Anyway sure, no disagreement there - Matthew clearly is modeling his overall structure on Moses - I'll explain what I mean if you are not familiar with the idea - but the reason I wonder if we do have some calumny directed at Mary is the genealogy listed in Matthew, which is a mighty curious thing --- I refer of course to all the women who feature in it...

Going to get some sleep now, but on the mend. Just irritating to be laid up for a while. Still the netbook allows posting...
cj x

 

[zooterkin]

And/or died with less than accurate records...

According to my mother, the death certificates for three of her great-grandparents (who all died around 75 years ago) state something along the lines of 'Cause of Death: Consumption'

That's what tuberculosis used to be called.

 

[six7s]

That's what tuberculosis used to be called.

Thanks, yeah, I know - and so does my mother - who also says she knows there was nothing wrong with their lungs...

It seems that 'consumption' was a term was used by the coroner (or whoever) as a catch-all in cases where determining the cause was either impossible or not worth the time and effort required to assess (or even record) accurately

The point I'm trying to make is that we have no eyed deer how many deaths have been caused by cancer

Anyhoo... time for a derail

I wonder...

Hey DOC! Got any compelling evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth yet?

If not, do you have any even mildly interesting evidence yet?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Well Evander Holyfield is big on the verse "I can do all things through Christ who strenghtens me". I would say there is power in those words because they helped him defeat Mike Tyson twice. The second time was after he had a doctor treated heart condition. He claimed he was healed of his heart condition at a Benny Hilnn crusade. He then went on to defeat Tyson a second time.

Beating Mike Tyson after having being diagnosed with a heart condition -- well there is some kind of power going on there.

I think you should keep quiet on this, lest Holyfield be disqualified.

 

[paximperium]

I think you should keep quiet on this, lest Holyfield be disqualified.

Of course that would mean that God helped someone cheat. Instead of relying on his own ability, Hollyfield cheated by having something help him(maybe it's the steroids?).

This of course completely makes any accomplishment by a theist completely and utterly insignificant compared to those done by an atheist who doesn't have to cheat or rely on some skydaddy to accomplish something.