Hamas Wants Civilian Casualties

[Meadmaker]

It seems to me just what point in time you pick as a "starting" point to this conflict is crucial.

I think anything before Titus (c. 70 AD) is only marginally relevant.

 

[WildCat]

I just came across this story, I'm surprised no one saw it earlier:

At Shifa Hospital in Gaza, the director, Dr. Hussein Ashour, said that keeping his patients alive from their wounds was an enormous challenge. He said there were some 1,500 wounded people distributed among Gaza’s nine hospitals with far too few intensive care units, equipped ambulances and other vital equipment.

On Monday, Dr. Ashour was not the only official in charge. Armed Hamas militants in civilian clothes roamed the halls. Asked their function, they said it was to provide security. But there was internal bloodletting under way.

In the fourth-floor orthopedic section, a woman in her late 20s asked a militant to let her see Saleh Hajoj, her 32-year-old husband. She was turned away and left the hospital. Fifteen minutes later, Mr. Hajoj was carried out by young men pretending to transfer him to another ward. As he lay on the stretcher, he was shot in the left side of the head.

Mr. Hajoj, like five others killed at the hospital this way in 24 hours, was accused of collaboration with Israel. He had been in the central prison awaiting trial by Hamas judges; when Israel destroyed the prison on Sunday he and the others were transferred to the hospital. But their trials were short-circuited.

A crowd at the hospital showed no mercy after the shooting, which was widely observed. A man in his 30s mocked a woman expressing horror at the scene.

“This horrified you?” he shouted. “A collaborator that caused the death of many innocent and resistance fighters?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/world/middleeast/30mideast.html

So Hamas is using a hospital as a prison and execution chamber. Nice!

 

[WildCat]

Meanwhile, Israel sometimes diverts missiles if the target wanders too close to civilians:

 

[BeAChooser]

The best that Israel can hope for is to decrease (but not eliminate) the ability to launch rockets and change the equation such that those who have the capability (mostly) decide it's not worth the cost.

Or even better, make the cost to the Palestinian people, in general, so high that they finally turn on Hamas and stop them from launching rockets.

 

[gdnp]

I just came across this story, I'm surprised no one saw it earlier:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/world/middleeast/30mideast.html

So Hamas is using a hospital as a prison and execution chamber. Nice!

Well, I see no evidence Hamas was using it as a prison. I'm not sure what the rules are regarding armed men at the hospital.

Still, does it surprise you that brutal butchers like Hamas are using the fog of war as an excuse to purge their enemies?

And Israel is presumably getting intelligence from somewhere. Not too many Jews in Gaza. Could it be that Fatah supporters are tipping the Israelis to the location of Hamas targets? I'd be surprised if they weren't after how brutally they were treated during Hamas's military takeover. How would you expect Hamas to deal with spies and collaborators? Take them back to the prison that Israel just destroyed?

How do you suspect an Israeli unit would deal with a member who was feeding information to the enemy on the battlefield? Arrest him and bring him home for trial?

 

[WildCat]

Well, I see no evidence Hamas was using it as a prison.

It clearly says they were moved there from the prison after the prison was destroyed.

And Israel is presumably getting intelligence from somewhere. Not too many Jews in Gaza. Could it be that Fatah supporters are tipping the Israelis to the location of Hamas targets? I'd be surprised if they weren't after how brutally they were treated during Hamas's military takeover. How would you expect Hamas to deal with spies and collaborators? Take them back to the prison that Israel just destroyed?

Israle occupied Gaza for 25 years, they had a long time to build up contacts and intelligence sources. Even prior to the Hamas-Fatah feud they had a remarkable success rate at targeting militant leaders.

How do you suspect an Israeli unit would deal with a member who was feeding information to the enemy on the battlefield? Arrest him and bring him home for trial?

Yep.

 

[gdnp]

It clearly says they were moved there from the prison after the prison was destroyed.

Does it state that they were moved there by Hamas militants or by relief workers?

Israle occupied Gaza for 25 years, they had a long time to build up contacts and intelligence sources. Even prior to the Hamas-Fatah feud they had a remarkable success rate at targeting militant leaders.

And which side, Fatah or Hamas, do you think their current sources favor?

Yep.

Well, I'll give a point for trying.

But the second Lebanon war was fought from July-September 2006. This gentleman was convicted of giving information to Hezbollah between December 2007 and February 2008, two years after the end of hostilities. Not quite the same as if he were caught in the heat of battle.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Meanwhile, Israel sometimes diverts missiles if the target wanders too close to civilians:

..... But most of the time it doesn't care if Palestinian civilians get killed.

Wildcat your attempts at Israeli propaganda are, shall we say, no very effective at all.

The official spokespeople for Israel are really struggling in making a rational case for their murderous attack on Palestinian Civilians in Gaza.

If you're a thinking of signing up to the Israel Department of Public Manipulation and Persuasion I would advise you to not waste your time. It's a difficult job. You would, at the least, need to adopt an angry seething like demeanor where it's expected you could split blood and saliva at anytime. Tzipi Livni is a great example of this.

 

[yairhol]

..... But most of the time it doesn't care if Palestinian civilians get killed.

Ha, trying to crawl yourself out of humiliation after WildCat's video.

It really doesn't matter what facts you're faced with about Israel being, humanitarian, Hamas treating their citizens like ****, Israel's non-agenda to take over the whole of Palestine etc., you will still hold your extremist views and shower us with lies about the Israeli/Hamas conflict.

 

[ddt]

Meanwhile, Israel sometimes diverts missiles if the target wanders too close to civilians:

But really only when they have a camera crew ready to make a propaganda movie out of it.

Other times, Israeli aircraft shoots a second missile, loaded with flechettes, to inflict maximum damage on the crowd that has assembled after the first missile hit:

The Israeli military has admitted that it lied about a rocket attack on a Gaza refugee camp, which according to the army led to no casualties, but which the Palestinians have claimed killed 14 civilians.... [T]he army now admits that it lied in briefings to the Israeli and foreign press, because the second rocket was not a Hellfire missile. The military refuses to identify the weapon used, on the grounds of "operational security". But the speculation is that it was an American-made Flechette, which is illegal under international law because it fires thousands of tiny darts over hundreds of meters, causing horrific injuries. Israel has used similar weapons in Gaza in the past...

Evidence from the attack scene indicated that the second missile exploded in the air, not on impact, suggesting an intention to cause casualties in a wide area instead of just destroying the vehicle.

Source.

 

[gtc]

The incident is from 2003 and you are presenting speculation about one incidence as if it was evidence of multiple incidences actually occuring. Isn't that dishonest?

 

[a_unique_person]

The incident is from 2003 and you are presenting speculation about one incidence as if it was evidence of multiple incidences actually occuring. Isn't that dishonest?

http://www.btselem.org/english/Firearms/Flechette.asp

Multiple incidences.

 

[ddt]

The incident is from 2003 and you are presenting speculation about one incidence as if it was evidence of multiple incidences actually occuring. Isn't that dishonest?

1) what a_u_p said: multiple incidents
2) the story starts with an incident involving flechettes from 2005
3) don't you think the behaviour of the IDF in the case I cited is support enough that the speculation is true? For starters, eyewitness reports say that the missile exploded in the sky and not on impact.

 

[WildCat]

Does it state that they were moved there by Hamas militants or by relief workers?

And which side, Fatah or Hamas, do you think their current sources favor?


Well, I'll give a point for trying.

But the second Lebanon war was fought from July-September 2006. This gentleman was convicted of giving information to Hezbollah between December 2007 and February 2008, two years after the end of hostilities. Not quite the same as if he were caught in the heat of battle.

Any evidence that any Fatah members actually were caught in the heat of battle? Or that Hamas actually has any evidence other than suspicion?

 

[WildCat]

Flechettes are not an illegal weapon.

 

[gtc]

1) what a_u_p said: multiple incidents
2) the story starts with an incident involving flechettes from 2005
3) don't you think the behaviour of the IDF in the case I cited is support enough that the speculation is true? For starters, eyewitness reports say that the missile exploded in the sky and not on impact.

Bull ****. The evidence provided suggests that the IDF has used them against military targets. You are suggesting that the IDF has, on multiple occasions, used them to attack crowds of civillians that have gathered around after a missile strike.

This is a vile allegation and you have provided absolutely no evidence to back it up.

 

[a_unique_person]

Flechettes are not an illegal weapon.

Controversy

The use of artillery flechette rounds in populated areas has recently been criticized largely as a result of the publicity generated by their use by the Israel Defense Forces in the Gaza Strip.[2] These criticisms focus on the wide area of effect of artillery flechette rounds, and their use in areas with large civilian populations. Detractors argue that the use of such rounds conflicts with the Fourth Geneva Convention provisions protecting non-combatants.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette#Controversy

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Ha, trying to crawl yourself out of humiliation after WildCat's video.

Why one earth would I be humiliated about that?

It really doesn't matter what facts you're faced with about Israel being, humanitarian, Hamas treating their citizens like ****, Israel's non-agenda to take over the whole of Palestine etc., you will still hold your extremist views and shower us with lies about the Israeli/Hamas conflict.

Extremist views. haha.

My agenda is a care for the innocent people in this world. At least I don't make vile and bigoted comparisons between Israeli and Palestinian Mothers.

I suppose to *some* speaking out against the Israeli persecution and apartheid against innocent Palestinians is extremist.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

But really only when they have a camera crew ready to make a propaganda movie out of it.

Other times, Israeli aircraft shoots a second missile, loaded with flechettes, to inflict maximum damage on the crowd that has assembled after the first missile hit:

Source.

from the Source ...

Who would have believed that the Israel Defense Forces would fire flechette shells at a soccer field where children were playing, wounding nine people, including two children, without anyone protesting? In fact, the story was barely reported.

Only those who saw the hundreds of small black metal spurs scattered over a wide area from the shell - as was the case in an incident half-a-year ago in which four members of the Abu al-Hajin family were killed in the Gaza Strip - or saw the results of the post mortem of three Palestinian youths whose bodies were split apart by such shells a few months ago, can understand what a truly horrific weapon this is. The use of the type of weapons to which the flechette belongs has been banned by international law. In Israel, this weapon, which is no different from the appalling devices used by terrorists who pack nails into their explosives, is legal."

Now this is vile.


The IDF doesn't care. Like it doesn't care about the daily maiming and murdering of children in South Lebanon that still goes on to this today, following the dropping of 3 million clusterbomblets. Many of them not exploding and just sitting there waiting to kill someone indiscriminately. And it's worth noting that these were dropped in the last 48 hours of the attack, even after the ceasefire date had been agreed

 

[WildCat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette#Controversy

Well, if someone editing Wikipedia says so...